Jump point bomb fixes

[Target]

The way we play is ships jumping place their JP's before any ships in normal space have moved. This gives the ships a chance to move if they can, eg Spd 0 or trapped within a asteroid field you might be in trouble.
So place at the beginning of movement phase, dam done at end of movement phase if you are still in range.
Voted for specific scenario.

Just added this bit in but maybe we could scrap AJP, just have JP. Have the Flight Computer trait cover the abilities since AJP & Flight Comp seem to go hand in hand.
If you have a Flight Comp CQ 7 to avoid scattering & being able to fire & without CQ 9. This gives normal ships the chance to being able to fire when coming through since most ships can according to what we see.

 

[Ripple]

Couple of comments...

Someone above talked about ban it to keep the rules simple. I believe he was not saying ban it due to the controversy, but ban it rather than make a complicated rule allowing it in a limited number of circumstances.

Proposed changes from above - I like the opposed check (or just a straight check) to avoid the bomb. It removes one of my biggest issues with the weapon, which is that it avoids the greatest defense in the game, good position/maneuver. It is affected by some defenses (dodge I believe) but that is too ship specific. If you are going to put a weapon in the game, you have to put in a counter of some kind. For most weapons this can be just range and maneuver, JPB has no such defense and therefore all ships are susceptable to it.

I also like the rule that opening two jump points that end up overlaping causes the 'bonehead maneuver' to affect ships coming through. Helps prevent the stack of JBPs on a single ship, then everyone come in through the positionally relevant point.

A general rule that if you open a jump point you must come through that point yourself is also a good idea. I think it more reflects the show and I have a hard time picturing the hyperspace formations that make opening a jump point on one side of the table facing a certain direction possible if you are actually coming through one elsewhere. Does put a wrench in the tactics of the shell game with jps but...well I guess that just doesn't bother me enough to want to damage my immersion.

vote- I voted for scenario only. This is largely a ban, as I would allow it only if you were playing the specific scenario from the movie. I think it is too specialized a tactic, and too rarely seen in the show for it to be militarily a useful weapon. The fact that it also reeks of cheesy goodness is just a side note.

Ripple

 

[Drahazar]

Wow the sillyness continues in another area. JPB is a tactic and is a good one War is War and people pull shady stuff that happens get over it and stop crying about it. do you think the city the greeks wiped out with chemical weapons called foul by them not fighting with there armys go cry. How ever in fairness of play the way JPB is now is rediculous when you have 20something blue stars jpb your big bad warship with out any thing to make it hard to do so. the 2E rules I think are exactly whats need and matchs with the show a scout to mark the postion of the ship your ship doing the JPB needind Advanced JP to pull it off and a check how ever the check i think should be a little higher cause it was only the elite crew of the sharlin that pulled it off. limiting it by senirio or banning it just means you can't come up with any good tactics to play the game. People claim cheese when I play necrons in 40k but in reality they don't want to have to use strategy which is what these games are about to defeat the seemingly had to kill army or fleet. I say raise the command check up some so only the more elite crews of ships can pull it off. And stop crying seriously if its not JPB its stealth people cry about if its not that its something else like vorlons and shadows being to tough. THERE ANCHIENTS THERE SUPPOSED TO BE VERY HARD TO BEAT. Watch the show again all the younger races lost hundreds of ships to them for a reason. expect to heavy losses agains ANCHIENTS.

 

[locarno24]

This is largely a ban, as I would allow it only if you were playing the specific scenario from the movie.

Maybe not 'only the scenario from the movie', but I think scenario specific makes sense; leave in official rules for jump point attacks (which can be whatever you like; a CQ check would be nice).

Some scenarios already say 'may keep X ships in hyperspace'*, and some of these in turn can say 'these ships may make jump point attacks as they emerge'.

If people want to put the rules in a pick-up-and-play game, they can. In a generic tournament scenario, it's not there - except maybe in one or two games (if there's an Ambush! game or something similar).



* or X fleet allocation points in hyperspace. Which is always a question; 1/4 of the fleet by points (for example) keeps proportions reasonably, but then you never get to make a jump manouvre with your warlock/sharlin

 

[Locutus9956]

Ok for those who counter 'ban' arguments saying things like 'but then wed have to ban stealth, interceptors, crits, dodge, I have the following counter arguments:

Stealth is pretty much central to the how the Minbari work. It's a rule thats constantly in play. Furthermore there are now many MANY ways to counter it.

Interceptors again are very central to how EA in particular work and are again fairly easy to counter by using beam weapons or just focussing fire on one target at a time.

Crits, are a core game mechanic that dont give any particular advantage to anyone, though frankly I WOULD like to see them toned down a bunch.

Dodge, again is pretty central to how the ISA work but frankly if people dont like it Id be perfectly happy to just raise the target number for WS or their hit points and take it out.

Jump point bombs on the other hand, give a clear and easily abused advantage to Minbari and ESPECIALLY ISA. Its not a core part of how their fleet functions and they work just fine without it. Its not based on the entire style of the fleet/race on screen its based on one single incident in one movie in a somewhat unusual set of circumstances. And lastly, and this is crucial. THERE IS NO COUNTER TO IT. If your opponent opens a load of jump points on top of your flagship, thats pretty much it, you take the hits.

Comparing the JP Bomb rule to issues like stealth and crit overeffectiveness is unbelievably shortsighted in my oppinion and comments along those lines coming from playtesters do not exactly fill me with confidence.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think jump point bombing is the MASSIVE issue some people make it out to be but Im just more than a little worried about the potential for it to BECOME a massive problem at tourneys and the like with the bluestar (especially if it gets this dual jump engine thing (seriously by the way, where the hell did that idea come from anyway? Why exactly is it felt the bluestar needs this rule? Isnt one advanced jump engine on a PATROL level ship enough?!?!?!)

 

[Drahazar]

Yes people are making this a bigger issue than it really is its like watching the news they blow everything out of perspective and make it what they want people to see and think I hate news people. any who he is correct about the stealth issue wait its not a issue cause you can counter it many ways so stop crying same gose for the others stuff its how those fleets work and opperate so stop crying. And like Locutus said if they open massive jump points on a ship oh well sucks to be you the dude was a D&*K. Give the new 2e rules a chance for and see how it gose. And stop crying ban on everything to make your fleet better its not for balance most of the time people say ban its cause they don't like to think on how to beat it. this is a strategy game so use Strategy and stop asking for a free cookie.

 

[H]

oooohhh *clutches handbag*

 

[Da Boss]

Yes people are making this a bigger issue than it really is its like watching the news they blow everything out of perspective and make it what they want people to see and think I hate news people. any who he is correct about the stealth issue wait its not a issue cause you can counter it many ways so stop crying same gose for the others stuff its how those fleets work and opperate so stop crying. And like Locutus said if they open massive jump points on a ship oh well sucks to be you the dude was a D&*K. Give the new 2e rules a chance for and see how it gose. And stop crying ban on everything to make your fleet better its not for balance most of the time people say ban its cause they don't like to think on how to beat it. this is a strategy game so use Strategy and stop asking for a free cookie.

I am quite happy with the revised version of JPB but still say:
I think that when Moongoose kindly produced the preview article it was partly to canvas for reaction (could be wrong?) to the forthcoming changes - one of which is JPB.

It is even possible that some things /ideas for 2nd Ed will come from reactions / ideas on the forum - at least in an ideal world!

 

[Triggy]

Trust me (there's an inauspicious start to a sentence...), we are reading the forums and about three or four ideas directly from the forums have already been suggested to the playtest group and that's only on the issue of JPBing.

The preview of 2nd ed. to gather feedback is correct and there are many lines of feedback that have been implemented or at the very least had the concerns noted.

 

[Reaverman]

Lets vote

My vote: only used in specific scenarios.

Agreed

 

[MustEatBrains]

i´ve voted "ban it" a few days ago, but couldn´t bring myself to comment on it until now. Mainly because, I wasn´t sure if there could really be a compromise that could keep it in the game while being balanced.

However, now that the idea of giving target ships a chance to avoid it came up, that´s how I would handle it. The JPB is part of the tactics we see on the show, and that Jump points are dangerous is an integral part of B5 "fluff and physics".

However, we also see in ItB that the human ships try to evade the trap, they´re just not successful. But, had they reacted just a few moments earlier, they would have come away with far less damage. So yes, there should be at least a chance to keep your ships from harm.

Interestingly, noone seems to apply that the same damage should be caused by ships on the table opening jump points TO hyperspace, like we see in the Call to Arms movie (and it´s a good thing that rules are like this in this regard, otherwhise everyone would just keep on opening JPs on their opponents without actually firing any weapon).

 

[Commador Q]

I like the perposal in S+P. In my opinion the "give the target a chance to avoid it" is covered in that the vortex still has to role AD to hit, and if the CQ check is sucessfull. Otherwise the vortex still opens in that spot but doesn't do any damage.

I don't like the rule requiering a ship to come out though it's own jump point, because i can easily see how a ship could generate a JP and not enter, or how 2 ships could work together to generate 2 jump points while only preparing to (or even being able to) exit one of the points this spreading the exit points to oposit ends of the table.

As for tactcs that counter JP bombs, first of all a spread out fleet goes a long way by forcing your oponent to choose which ship to bomb, also thye will have to decide whether or not they come though (if they don't than they may not get another chance to bring that ship or ships into play).

Additionally (and this may be an unpopular statment) i'm not so keen on the way JP compares wit AJP with regards to firing weapons. I don't recall the series ever implying such a divide. The did on several ocasions say that there are varying degrees of accuracy with regards to opening up jump points, but nothing about some classes being able to attack right out of hyperspace while others can't. I think all JP traits shold have the restrictions of the basic JP trait, but on a sucessfull CQ check your ship acts as if it had the AJP trait when comming through. That way there is less of a bias to add things like AJP to all ISA ships, so the smaller ones could be prevented from JP bombing all together

 

[katadder]

ships in the new rules will have some limited firing available to them coming out of a JP when only got normal jump engines.

 

[Spike1382]

Wait, where's the scaled damage option?

 

[Enalut]

One question I rember coming up and will post in the other thread I just started about offical rulings in 2E:

But when does the damage from a JPB happen? Is it instant or does it happen at the end of the movement (or event attack or end) phase?

For instance, can ships that have not moved yet avoid a JPB that opened on top of thme simply by moving out of range?

Decelaring when the attack happens could go a long way to balancing the tactic.

FULL DISCLOSURE I have used the tactic on a few occasions and have always played and argued that it happens instantly--before movement is finished.

 

[Tank]

Im all in favour of JPB's being done as a CQ 12 check to represent an elite crew using this extremely difficult ambush or just ban it.

If you look at the one example on screen of a JPB, it outright destroys a whole task force, this would indicate, to me at least, that a successful JPB automatically cripples and skeletons ships caught in the blast wave with a further 1D6 damage & crew loss.

 

[emperorpenguin]

If you look at the one example on screen of a JPB, it outright destroys a whole task force, this would indicate, to me at least, that a successful JPB automatically cripples and skeletons ships caught in the blast wave with a further 1D6 damage & crew loss.

2 or 3 ships, not a whole task force

the Drala Fi comes out guns blazing accounting for several more kills

 

[Target]

ships in the new rules will have some limited firing available to them coming out of a JP when only got normal jump engines.

In favour of that. Yipee my Vorchans can swoop in, Fire & then get the hell out of Dodge.

 

[Enalut]

I saw it that the timing question got answered in another thread, but what about saying that JPB damage occurs at the end fo teh movement phase when the JP finishes opening? It would allow some ships a chnace to avoid the blast and make it much more limited in scope.

 

[Iain McGhee]

I'd go for the rules in the S+P article, and also only allow ships that are moving on-table within three turns to open a jump point and even then they have to move through the one they created (of course other ships in Hyperspace could come through first).