Idea: fix double and triple damage weapons
- Thread starter Burger
- Start date
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
I'd rather see the damage dice column for weapons, to be honest. It just seems more realistic and sensible.
thing is with this you would see ships critted to hell. I mean you guys whole redundancy idea was cos crits stop ships too much, now they would be taking far more crits, which might be single damage ones but would result in having no weapons, speed traits etc.
Its not only about the damage those crits cause, its about the crits additional effects, and this would seriously increase DD/TD weapons effectiveness in putting a ship totally out of the fight. in fact a TD precise weapon would be guarnateed to get a crit with every hit (on averages).
Its not only about the damage those crits cause, its about the crits additional effects, and this would seriously increase DD/TD weapons effectiveness in putting a ship totally out of the fight. in fact a TD precise weapon would be guarnateed to get a crit with every hit (on averages).
Locutus9956
Mongoose
You could change the MoD rule to any dilgar weapon that socres a crit does double the damage. That would just about work out I reckon.
There are bound to be "what about"s... I'm just presenting the idea in general. I don't claim to have thought of every little detail. Any caveats such as MoD would obviously have to be settled.
I'd prefer not to allow Dilgar to actually do double damage when all other races can effectively only do single. How about a Dilgar weapon that benefits from MoD, gets an extra roll on the crit table for each crit rolled? So you'd do single damage, but get 2 crits instead of 1 or 3 crits instead of 2.
I'd prefer not to allow Dilgar to actually do double damage when all other races can effectively only do single. How about a Dilgar weapon that benefits from MoD, gets an extra roll on the crit table for each crit rolled? So you'd do single damage, but get 2 crits instead of 1 or 3 crits instead of 2.
becuase probably not all of those 3AD will hit. just needs 1 hit from a TD weapon to get the 3 damage rolls.
and what if you get 3 crits - 1/6, 4/6 and 6/2. admittedly very lucky but its an extreme example. taken a ship out of action with multiple crits even if it hasnt killed it.
i would prefer my ship to take one big crit than lots of little ones. It may survive th big crit but hopefully it wont have all its systems critted out. with lots of crits you can lose all sorts of effectiveness.
and what if you get 3 crits - 1/6, 4/6 and 6/2. admittedly very lucky but its an extreme example. taken a ship out of action with multiple crits even if it hasnt killed it.
i would prefer my ship to take one big crit than lots of little ones. It may survive th big crit but hopefully it wont have all its systems critted out. with lots of crits you can lose all sorts of effectiveness.
I know that, I use whitestars enough. but 1AD TD SAP is 50/50 to hit a hull 6 vessel. 3AD AP is gonna hit a hull 6 vessel once on average. so the crits are not the same if the 1AD TD beam gets this hit.
more importantly though you are completely ignoring what I am saying about multiple crits, taking a ship out of action long before the damage does.
if we go by your theory, its still 1 hit to the 3AD beam and 50/50 for the TD beam, however if that 50/50 hits it can cause upto 3 crits. a bit much for 1 hit IMO, and will leave most ships stuck wallowing in space.
more importantly though you are completely ignoring what I am saying about multiple crits, taking a ship out of action long before the damage does.
if we go by your theory, its still 1 hit to the 3AD beam and 50/50 for the TD beam, however if that 50/50 hits it can cause upto 3 crits. a bit much for 1 hit IMO, and will leave most ships stuck wallowing in space.
TenaciousB
Mongoose
BURGER FOR PLAYTESTER!!!!
katadder your maths seems to be malfunctioning, or rather suffering from hiedous rounding errors 
Allow me to show my "working out".
1AD triple damage, attacking hull 6. You are going to get 0.1666 hits, tripled gives 0.5 damage and 0.027777 crits. Each crit does an average of 4.375 damage, so you're looking at an average damage output of 0.6215.
3AD single damage, attacking hull 6. You are going to get 0.5 hits, each doing 0.5 damage and 0.08333 crits. Each crit does an average of 1.458 damage, so you're looking at an average damage output of 0.6125.
As you can see they are identical. If you try other hull values or other traits such as Beam or AP, it makes no difference, Doubling the AD gives exactly the same damage average as Double Damage.
The only difference is that the single damage one will do generate more crit effects than the TD one. That is what my point is. Why a DD or TD weapon is worse than a single damage one with double the AD. To me, that feels wrong.
Yes, crits can take out a ship long before its damage or crew... but what has that got to do with this... this change would help big ships versus small pack, because a small pack is more likely to have lots of single damage weapons (unless they're Ka'T**s) therefore be unaffected.
Allow me to show my "working out".1AD triple damage, attacking hull 6. You are going to get 0.1666 hits, tripled gives 0.5 damage and 0.027777 crits. Each crit does an average of 4.375 damage, so you're looking at an average damage output of 0.6215.
3AD single damage, attacking hull 6. You are going to get 0.5 hits, each doing 0.5 damage and 0.08333 crits. Each crit does an average of 1.458 damage, so you're looking at an average damage output of 0.6125.
As you can see they are identical. If you try other hull values or other traits such as Beam or AP, it makes no difference, Doubling the AD gives exactly the same damage average as Double Damage.
The only difference is that the single damage one will do generate more crit effects than the TD one. That is what my point is. Why a DD or TD weapon is worse than a single damage one with double the AD. To me, that feels wrong.
Yes, crits can take out a ship long before its damage or crew... but what has that got to do with this... this change would help big ships versus small pack, because a small pack is more likely to have lots of single damage weapons (unless they're Ka'T**s) therefore be unaffected.
which then, if we consider the approach suggested (sorry forget by who) that bigger ships have more damage control teams to repair crits, goes somewhay to balance the increase in crit EFFECTS. maybe. . .
I tihnk Katadders point has merit, he's not really worried about the damage, just the fact that you will get a lot more criticals, which could just slow the game to a crawl if not checked in some other way
I tihnk Katadders point has merit, he's not really worried about the damage, just the fact that you will get a lot more criticals, which could just slow the game to a crawl if not checked in some other way
finally, thankyou hiffano.
too many crits will not help big ships in the slightest. the swarm will win even more cos they have mroe ships. whereas the big ships are taking multiple crits from every DD or TD weapon that hits them (so are the small ships but you have mroe so one of these being effected is less important).
ok the maths may not be the best, but someone did mentioned 3AD AP beams aganist 1AD SAP beams which is what i was going from.
as this includes things like Ka'tocs and WSs.
too many crits will not help big ships in the slightest. the swarm will win even more cos they have mroe ships. whereas the big ships are taking multiple crits from every DD or TD weapon that hits them (so are the small ships but you have mroe so one of these being effected is less important).
ok the maths may not be the best, but someone did mentioned 3AD AP beams aganist 1AD SAP beams which is what i was going from.
as this includes things like Ka'tocs and WSs.
Captain Kremmen
Mongoose
Agree, Burgers idea makes a lot of sense
No worries KT, and yes Burger, you are right that lots of single AD outdamage a DD or TD weapon with less dice, thats not up for dispute now, I tihnk we are all smart enough to acknowledge your Superior maths skills, but the increased crits will be a nightmare.
so, we do what you suggest with your weapons perhaps, not a problem, but you then need to look at redundancies, or better chances to repair crits.
so, we do what you suggest with your weapons perhaps, not a problem, but you then need to look at redundancies, or better chances to repair crits.
