Idea: fix double and triple damage weapons

Burger

Cosmic Mongoose
Background:
After playing Reaverman last night we got talking about the White Star, and its usual lack of performance with the Improved Neutron Laser. Actually I think it did about averagely, but it always seems to miss, and hardly ever does more than 1 hit against hull 6, resulting in relatively few criticals even with Precise. Whereas in return, my high AD single damage weapons were doing relatively little damage, but causing crits all over the place.

Problem:
Double Damage weapons are actually worse than Single Damage ones! This is really silly and completely backwards in my opinion.

It has been shown from many numerical examples, that a high AD weapon is better than a Double Damage or Triple Damage weapon with proportionally lower ADs. For example a 6AD weapon is better than 3AD DD, and both are better than a 2AD TD weapon. The reasoning for this is such. The average damage is the same because one has double AD therefore does double the number of hits; the other's hits do double damage. Even taking crits into account, the DD weapon's crits will do double damage, but the single damage weapon will get twice as many crits due to doing twice the number of hits. So the average damage done will be identical.

Crits is where the single-damage weapon benefits. It has twice as many AD, so gets twice as many hits. So it does twice as many crits, therefore inflicts twice as many crit effects. The crits from a 6AD weapon will do the same average damage as those from a 3AD DD weapon, but the 6AD one will be more likely to knock out weapon arcs, get speed 0, prevent special actions, etc.

Solution:
Make it similar to VAS ;)
No don't add a damage dice column to weapons! That is not needed and is too much of a change. We already have the DD and TD traits. Instead of a double damage weapon doing double the damage, make it roll double the damage dice. So if you get 4 hits on a DD weapon, you roll 8 damage dice. 4 hits on a TD weapon, you roll 12 damage dice. This would keep the average damage the same, but equalize the crit effects. So a 6AD weapon would be the same as a 3AD DD weapon and a 2AD TD weapon.

That change would solve the current problem, and make a higher damage weapon equal to a higher AD weapon. But I'd like to make them better! After all a Double Damage weapon should be scarier than a high AD single damage one. So I would keep the bulkhead rule... if a damage dice from a double or triple damage dice is a bulkhead hit, it still does 1 damage and no crew loss. This would give DD and TD weapons a slight edge, without making them overly powerful.

Good idea or crazy madman??
 
Thats... actually a really superb idea!

If any playtesters are reading this I think this one should be SERIOUSLY considered for 2nd Ed!
 
um, I probably misunderstood to be honest, but I get the feeling that when a Quad damage ship even looks at me, I may as well remove my ship from the table ;-)

I "think" i get what you are saying (I admit, maths was never my strongpoint, but I know it's one of yours, so I will probably agree on that principle)
 
I presume we wouldn't be doubling the crit damage for DD weapons & so on, treating it like single dam crits ?
It would also take out the different damage vs hits & crew so would make that part of the game easier with only to having subtract the same number from both.
It will make the Sharlin scarier in the amount of crits it can do.
Guess a few games will test that out.
Won't make difference to my games as i can never see a Sharlin, any other Stealth ship i have no problems rolling stealth for. It has become my bogey ship lately.
 
Locutus9956 said:
Thats... actually a really superb idea!

If any playtesters are reading this I think this one should be SERIOUSLY considered for 2nd Ed!

Well Greg already posted, so he's seen this :-)
lets see if he can get it taken up, Greg, we nominate you to champion this cause!
 
hiffano said:
um, I probably misunderstood to be honest, but I get the feeling that when a Quad damage ship even looks at me, I may as well remove my ship from the table ;-)
This is my point exactly. Which would you rather be fired at by: 4AD quad damage beam, or 16AD single damage beam? They will do the same damage on average, but the 16AD will inflict more critical effects, therefore is a nastier weapon.

The quad damge sounds scarier, but in fact it is less effective.
 
yeah, I get it, don't worry :-)

so the 4AD Quad damage ship rolls 16 dice, EACH as a single damage dice yes?
 
hiffano said:
so the 4AD Quad damage ship rolls 16 dice, EACH as a single damage dice yes?
Yes... if the 4AD quad damage gets 4 hits, then it would roll 16 damage dice (doing normal, single damage). If it only got 2 hits then it would roll 8 dice. Etc.
 
good idea, I like it (I say with nothing more offensive than double damage in my fleets... I ignore the mag gun, as it somehow misses EVERYTHING!
 
It is an interesting option. Most complaints about damage multipliers are from people saying they're too nasty. I agree fully that more AD = more crits = nastier, but I think people will see this as the lesser option.

Worth a thought. I can't see it in 2ed though, we are too far into playtesting to start changing fundamental game rules.

Wulf
 
Wulf Corbett said:
It is an interesting option. Most complaints about damage multipliers are from people saying they're too nasty. I agree fully that more AD = more crits = nastier, but I think people will see this as the lesser option.
Well yes people do see Double Damage as better than double AD... but "people" are wrong because they don't think about it mathematically, they just see "double damage" and say "oooh scary". As shown in many numerical examples, double AD is mathematically better than double damage.

And this change wouldn't alter people's perception would it? Double Damage means you roll double the damage dice... surely that is just as scary as rolling the same number of hits but doubling the damage values?

Wulf Corbett said:
Worth a thought. I can't see it in 2ed though, we are too far into playtesting to start changing fundamental game rules.
It's not all that fundamental. Like I said I'm not suggesting adding a damage dice column like VAS, that would be far too big a change and would add quite a bit of complication. The suggestion keeps the ship stats the same and keeps the damage statistics identical, so any playtesting that has been done to date is still valid.
 
Burger said:
No don't add a damage dice column to weapons! That is not needed and is too much of a change. We already have the DD and TD traits. Instead of a double damage weapon doing double the damage, make it roll double the damage dice. So if you get 4 hits on a DD weapon, you roll 8 damage dice. 4 hits on a TD weapon, you roll 12 damage dice. This would keep the average damage the same, but equalize the crit effects. So a 6AD weapon would be the same as a 3AD DD weapon and a 2AD TD weapon.

You definetly need to keep the bulkhead thing as without it I would still choose 8AD single damage over 4AD double damage...More dice rolled=luck affects less...
 
tneva82 said:
You definetly need to keep the bulkhead thing as without it I would still choose 8AD single damage over 4AD double damage...More dice rolled=luck affects less...
Yes that is another issue... more dice means less deviation and your luck will even out. I guess that is personal preference though, some people like to risk it all on a couple of dice of big damage, whereas others like to spread their luck and get an average amount of small damage.
 
Burger said:
And this change wouldn't alter people's perception would it? Double Damage means you roll double the damage dice... surely that is just as scary as rolling the same number of hits but doubling the damage values?
The real issue with Double Damage is the 6-6 crit (and the like), not just crits in general. This change WOULD change the nature of critical hits, since it would reduce the likelihood of a single lucky crit destroying the ship.

But is that good or bad...

Wulf
 
I cant see how thats even a QUESTION. Its good flat out. One of the biggest issues I and many people have with ACTA is that crits ARE too devastating. Id much rather see more frequent small crits than the occasionaly game dominating ubercrit.
 
Wulf Corbett said:
The real issue with Double Damage is the 6-6 crit (and the like), not just crits in general. This change WOULD change the nature of critical hits, since it would reduce the likelihood of a single lucky crit destroying the ship.
Yes you are right but the "one shot kill" was removed with SFOS and that was considered to be A Good Thing (tm) ;)

Since you are rolling twice as many damage dice, you are going to get twice as many crits. So it would actually increase the likelihood of getting that 6-6 in the first place! It wouldn't do as much damage, true.. but you'd have twice as many of them.

Twice as many crits, or crits that do twice as much damage... swings and roundabouts... the statistics are identical, you'll do the same average damage both ways. This is entirely my point. The only difference is in the crit effects, and in this respect you are much better off with double AD than with double damage.
 
Like Burger was saying, the multiplier does aboloutly nothing, when you are rolling to attack. Some of these weapons which are meant to puch big holes in ships, just glance off them with little effect. The 'New' suggestions sounds very interesting, but do you still multiply the critical effects?
 
Burger said:
Wulf Corbett said:
The real issue with Double Damage is the 6-6 crit (and the like), not just crits in general. This change WOULD change the nature of critical hits, since it would reduce the likelihood of a single lucky crit destroying the ship.
Yes you are right but the "one shot kill" was removed with SFOS ;)

Since you are rolling twice as many damage dice, you are going to get twice as many crits. So it would actually increase the likelihood of getting that 6-6 in the first place! It wouldn't do as much damage, true.. but you'd have twice as many of them.

Twice as many crits, or crits that do twice as much damage... swings and roundabouts... the statistics are identical, you'll do the same average damage both ways. This is entirely my point. The only difference is in the crit effects, and in this respect you are much better off with double AD than with double damage.

Ahh, so you would apply the damage as if it was single, well that makes sense :)
 
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