How politically manipulative R the Zhodani: Foreign Affairs

[Liam Devlin]

This topic is anticipation of MgT's Aliens: Zhodani I freely admit, and with the snippets throughout the Traveller History (MgT's Library Data, Aliens: Vargr, Aliens: Darrians, Aliens: Aslan, Sector Fleet, Starports, Tripwire, & Spinward Marches and the lessons learned from four Frontier Wars (with the looming possibility of a 5th one not far off), how do we perceive and convey to our gamers what the Zhodani Consulate's various foreign policy issues are, and with whom.

In the Marches we note their stance versus the Darrians, and their support towards the Sword Worlders, and their interest in the Federation of Arden (a rising power).

We note also which Vargr states are aligned and open to trade with them in Gvvurdon, and which are not...

We note in the Trojan Reaches 2-5 Zhodani cruisers annually meander down there between the Florian League and the Imperium to various Non-aligned worlds towards the Aslan Hierate worlds...

With what we know, and much left to fill in, how to see the Zhodani vis-a-vis the Imperium's diplomatic efforts between their two great Interstellar States?
Some caveats to this discussion:

:arrow: If you do not have the Zhodani IYTU, and run a ATU, that's allright.

:arrow: I am specifically looking at how we as Gamers & refs portray them, given what we know of their activities, and presume to be their initiatives in the realm of trade, exploration, and foreign policy that they as a State conduct-- we may narrow the focus down to what we have on hand, and what was previously done in CT, GDW, and MgT. TNE can be discounted for I am looking at the 1105-era presently, and times prior to that for the project I have in Foreven Sector.

:arrow: We know a great deal about Imperial embassies and Consulate offices on Client States and such, so we can presume the Zhodani have their equivalent on worlds where they and the Imperium are in contestation for allegiance, trade alliance, or somesuch.

:arrow: Where we know they differ from the Imperium is that the Zhodani are "content" with their borders... but that does not preclude gaining new friends or allied partners it seems in small polity states along its borders does it?

 

[rust]

With what we know, and much left to fill in, how to see the Zhodani vis-a-vis the Imperium's diplomatic efforts between their two great Interstellar States?

I see the Zhodani foreign policy towards the Third Imperium as basically
isolationist, aimed at keeping the Imperium away from the Consulate's
borders and at establishing a buffer zone of minor powers between the
Consulate and the Imperium. As long as the Imperium does not attempt
to intrude on Zhodani space, the Zhodani seem very unlikely to openly
act against the Imperium, although the usual semi-hot intelligence war is
always ongoing between these two powers. Overall, the Zhodani seem
far more interested in their corewards expansion and need the majority
of their resources there, and would therefore probably be quite happy if
the Imperium would just leave them alone.

On a more simple level, in my view the Zhodani are the more peaceful
ones, and the Imperials the more aggressive ones.

 

[Liam Devlin]

[Moved to topic header]

 

[Liam Devlin]

I see the Zhodani foreign policy towards the Third Imperium as basically
isolationist, aimed at keeping the Imperium away from the Consulate's
borders and at establishing a buffer zone of minor powers between the
Consulate and the Imperium. As long as the Imperium does not attempt
to intrude on Zhodani space, the Zhodani seem very unlikely to openly
act against the Imperium, although the usual semi-hot intelligence war is
always ongoing between these two powers. Overall, the Zhodani seem
far more interested in their corewards expansion and need the majority
of their resources there, and would therefore probably be quite happy if
the Imperium would just leave them alone.

On a more simple level, in my view the Zhodani are the more peaceful
ones, and the Imperials the more aggressive ones.

Astutely put, Herr Rust.
Agreed, the Cold War in intelligence gathering between the two powers does reaches the semi-hot temperatures at times (e.g. the 1104 assassination of the Imperial Ambassador to Zhdant & bringing her body back aboard the ISS Pantheress, a Tigress-class Dreadnaught).

:arrow: So backing and aiding buffer-states is not a(pardon the pun) *foreign idea* to their policies you are saying.

Hmmm.... my thanks sir!
Anyone else?

 

[Liam Devlin]

One of the reasons for this line of inquiry is of course the "passive" methods by which the Zhodani employ their foreign policies. The use of proxy-states to implement one's measures can probably be best seen in their working realtionship with the Sword World Confederation in the previous Frontier Wars--albeit to a limited extent, as the SWC's individual member state worlds each have their own agendas, and getting them to co-ordinate against a single enemy (the Imperium) takes some doing... :roll: ,much like the Vargr of Gvvurdon... :twisted:

Case in point, the Imperial Client states in Foreven (yes they do exist in subsectors H-Fessor, L-Reidain, & P-Urnian); it would not be unorthodox of the Zhodani to support non-aligned worlds against such a move to declare for this status, or conduct trade with those moving in that direction then.

Add to this then the Darrian equation & their 'Star Trigger' deterrent, as well as their use of Aslan mercenaries so successfully in the 2nd Frontier War...the Zhodani are known to spy on the Darrians to the current day for the very reason they watched them passively for centuries building themselves back to starflight again. Such a weapon is (short of crude antimatter weapons) the ultimate showstopper.

While the Darrians appear to be expansionistic (via retaking what was once theirs--primarily from the Swordies), they have since declaring to the Imperium, Swordies, and Zhodani Consulate that they have them, yet to use them. As a defensive deterrent, the Darrian 'bluff' has held to date; and as students of the region may note, have not been used offensively...

Zhodani-Darrian relations have since -165 gone from trade friendly to Cold-War frigid (and briefly war-hot, e.g. 2nd Frontier War in commerce raiding vs Zhodani shipping).

One wonders what since 615 the Zhodani have been up to to prevent that from re-occuring...Guess we'll have to wait n see when their book comes out!

 

[Stainless]

I agree with Rust as well. I also think that the Zhodani culture, being what it is, considers most everyone else to be an aberrant curiosity. If they want to prevent feelings of dissatisfaction, dishonesty, etc. within their own people, what better place to gain insights into these deficiencies than in the Imperium? Thus, IMTU there are numerous anthropological studies going on within the Imperium. Such anthropologists are harmless to Imperial security but need to carry out their studies covertly. Thus, card-carrying members of the Tozjabr can be found incognito as chaplains, mediators, parole officers, etc. Lots of roleplaying potential when you discover your parole officer is in fact a "Zhodani spy"!

 

[Liam Devlin]

I agree with Rust as well. I also think that the Zhodani culture, being what it is, considers most everyone else to be an aberrant curiosity. If they want to prevent feelings of dissatisfaction, dishonesty, etc. within their own people, what better place to gain insights into these deficiencies than in the Imperium? Thus, IMTU there are numerous anthropological studies going on within the Imperium. Such anthropologists are harmless to Imperial security but need to carry out their studies covertly. Thus, card-carrying members of the Tozjabr can be found incognito as chaplains, mediators, parole officers, etc. Lots of roleplaying potential when you discover your parole officer is in fact a "Zhodani spy"!

Mssr Stainless,

With the wee snippets we know of the Zhodani scattered between the above mentioned books, and the MgT Core Rulebook, and even MgT's Book7: Merchant Prince, we also know the Zhodani are uncomfortable with Psionic-despising/ shunning worlds. I see your point on the anthropology-level, but the Intendant or Noble who undertook to do so would also be facing Psion-user charges as well within the Imperium...on a Non-aligned world, settled by Solomani & former Imperial humans, much less of an issue (planetary Law-level notwithstanding) there. While it would be hard for me to conceive a Prole Sociologist/ Pyschiatrist/Pyschologist/ Anthropologist doing so, we are in the realm of Scifi here. On the flipside....

such an anthropological "expedition" would also make an excellent mask/ diversionary tactic for a real intelligence gathering mission... while the innocent study group is being followed and watched...where is the real Zhodani group sent to scout ahead and keep peepers on the Imperial Navy, or the IISS?

Good idea there!
Anyone else?

 

[rust]

I see your point on the anthropology-level, but the Intendant or Noble who undertook to do so would also be facing Psion-user charges as well within the Imperium...

Hmmm ... I was just thinking of all the interstellar states and unaligned
planets along the borders of the Third Imperium. For example, a diploma-
tic delegation of the Zhodani on its way to the Hiver realm would have to
cross the entire Imperium, giving it years for "anthropological studies" in
the Imperium, and the members of the delegation could be protected by
their diplomatic immunity during all of this ... with a prudent planning of
their diplomatic relations, the Zhodani could send such delegations through
almost all regions of the Imperium ...

 

[Liam Devlin]

Hmmm ... I was just thinking of all the interstellar states and unaligned
planets along the borders of the Third Imperium. For example, a diploma-
tic delegation of the Zhodani on its way to the Hiver realm would have to
cross the entire Imperium, giving it years for "anthropological studies" in
the Imperium, and the members of the delegation could be protected by
their diplomatic immunity during all of this ... with a prudent planning of
their diplomatic relations, the Zhodani could send such delegations through
almost all regions of the Imperium ...

Herr Rust,

I do believe you've nailed the one aspect it could be achieved under--diplomatic immunity--brilliant! :shock: Lord knows what they could observe and pick up just from media available at each planet they pass in passive intelligence gathering! :twisted: :twisted: 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

One wonders if the Zhodani have an embassy say at the Solomani Confederation, or with the Hiver federation...just replacing the Ambassador at either could provide up-to date data on the Imperium crossing it to and fro...

 

[rust]

Ah, not my idea - I was just remembering what Soviet diplomats did all
the time during the Cold War. We once even had to quickly block a road
of the air base where I served with some armoured cars to prevent one
of those black Moskvitchs with a diplomatic license plate from driving into
the base and right up to the storage facility of the nukes ... :lol:

 

[Liam Devlin]

Ah, not my idea - I was just remembering what Soviet diplomats did all
the time during the Cold War. We once even had to quickly block a road
of the air base where I served with some armoured cars to prevent one
of those black Moskvitchs with a diplomatic license plate from driving into
the base and right up to the storage facility of the nukes ... :lol:

Mayhap Herr Rust, but your modesty does you justice. It would of course (such a diplomatic Envoy mission) have to be "steered" from certain systems, or parts of systems the Imperium would deem "sensitive"... proving to the Zhodani the Imperials were hiding something yet again!

 

[BFalcon]

Liam: maybe - or they could "hide in plain sight" certain border facilities, for example intelligence operations. I seem to remember the VC having a facility in a bar or restaurant right next to the main US base in Saigon...

It would not be beyond the realms of possibility to use civilian ships and keep a part of a "civilian" facility as part of such an operation so close to the border to keep diplomatic tensions to a minimum. This would go for both sides and could lead to the same kind of "unseen war" that took place in the cold war here on earth.

The exact kind of facility would probably differ, but the Zhodani might use some kind of psionic facility, possibly to determine information remotely, might they not?

 

[Rick]

I'm thinking that the Imperium might use some sort of maskirovka with the Zhodani - hide some secrets in plain sight, then label an uninhabited system as 'off-limits' - just to add some misdirection, lol!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Liam: maybe - or they could "hide in plain sight" certain border facilities, for example intelligence operations. I seem to remember the VC having a facility in a bar or restaurant right next to the main US base in Saigon...

It would not be beyond the realms of possibility to use civilian ships and keep a part of a "civilian" facility as part of such an operation so close to the border to keep diplomatic tensions to a minimum. This would go for both sides and could lead to the same kind of "unseen war" that took place in the cold war here on earth.

The exact kind of facility would probably differ, but the Zhodani might use some kind of psionic facility, possibly to determine information remotely, might they not?

Mssr BFalcon,

Indeed you have the right of that. Thanks to Psionics, the Zhodani Consulate doubtless have an excellent HUMINT gathering array of operatives (and no, they don't wear their *turbans* to work on the job! I am recalling an illustration in Tripwire, so pardon my POV). Still it can be spoofed--as seen how the Darrians spoof what they know the Zho are prying after with Psion-using espionage.

A Telepathic-Clairsentient Agent could through various Prole agents remain hidden, and contact remotely and *scry* what his/her prole minion is viewing/ doing/ reading...certainly to outfox the Psion-sniffers!

Another clue to this type of gathering is seen in Sector Fleets with the Shivva-class Patrol frigate, a 600dt vessel with a brood of 10x 10dt light fighters; the class sports a second bridge, a Psionic bridge for the CAG, but can also be used by a Clairsentient Psion for planetary *viewing* from orbit...the vessel has multiple uses as as an escort, raider, and ELINT/HUMINT gathering....

As for Zhodani Prole merchants being spies/ gatherers of intelligence--while one of the oldest trade secrets in human history, I am sure Zho merchants duly offer up reports when returning to Consulate space as part of their nationalistic civic duty.

 

[Liam Devlin]

I'm thinking that the Imperium might use some sort of maskirovka with the Zhodani - hide some secrets in plain sight, then label an uninhabited system as 'off-limits' - just to add some misdirection, lol!

Mssr Rick,

Doubtless, but then the Imperium puts these big things called 'RED ZONES" up all over the place...and while the Zhodani are passively resisting the Imperial encroachment on their borders to date, that is not to say they wouldn't hire some Travellers/ fools/players to check it out for them...

I am quite sure that a number of Psions & descendants of same formerly Imperial citizens prior to the Psionic Suppressions fled across the border into Zhodani or neutral space between the two powers... I am quite sure the Consulate has recruited a few of these for go-between work like this!

 

[BFalcon]

I'm thinking that the Imperium might use some sort of maskirovka with the Zhodani - hide some secrets in plain sight, then label an uninhabited system as 'off-limits' - just to add some misdirection, lol!

That's how I see it - or even go one step further and have a hidden base in the same system as a minor military facility - with knowledge of it being a strict "need to know" - maybe telling the base commander (the legit base, I mean) that something will be going on across the system and not to patrol that area.

The Zhodani would probably scout it once, find it's a warehouse facility for mundane items like minor spare parts, soap and other (non-essential) items, something they'd not bother to hit, while (across the system), the main secret base would be stealthed up or hidden in asteroids and all ships coming and going would be both stealthed up and jump-stealthed to avoid drawing attention to themselves - or at least jump-stealthed if they were likely to have to enter an occupied system. If there's a major need, they might also have a supply base to base the stealthed ships at in an empty region of space, using civilian ships to bring people to and from it, along with fuel (possibly in the form of water to keep it less suspicious) and other supplies... such a base could supply several such bases - even to the point where such a forward facility could be based in a populated system to keep tabs on ships coming and going in a sort of counter-espionage role.

The merchants would, almost certainly, report back, as would any Zhodani that happens to visit an Imperial or "neutral" world, but such a monitoring station in an imperial world could be interrogated by a "merchant" on a regular basis and keep a record of any and all ships approaching key planets... just one question - do you need to "interrogate" a ship's transponder, or does it transmit as soon as it approaches a base? Would such a transmission (in either case) be tight-beam or a general broadcast?

you can go down this road for a long way - with move and counter-move and counter-counter-move until your head hurts... lol

 

[Liam Devlin]

I'm thinking that the Imperium might use some sort of maskirovka with the Zhodani - hide some secrets in plain sight, then label an uninhabited system as 'off-limits' - just to add some misdirection, lol!

That's how I see it - or even go one step further and have a hidden base in the same system as a minor military facility - with knowledge of it being a strict "need to know" - maybe telling the base commander (the legit base, I mean) that something will be going on across the system and not to patrol that area.

The Zhodani would probably scout it once, find it's a warehouse facility for mundane items like minor spare parts, soap and other (non-essential) items, something they'd not bother to hit, while (across the system), the main secret base would be stealthed up or hidden in asteroids and all ships coming and going would be both stealthed up and jump-stealthed to avoid drawing attention to themselves - or at least jump-stealthed if they were likely to have to enter an occupied system. If there's a major need, they might also have a supply base to base the stealthed ships at in an empty region of space, using civilian ships to bring people to and from it, along with fuel (possibly in the form of water to keep it less suspicious) and other supplies... such a base could supply several such bases - even to the point where such a forward facility could be based in a populated system to keep tabs on ships coming and going in a sort of counter-espionage role.

The merchants would, almost certainly, report back, as would any Zhodani that happens to visit an Imperial or "neutral" world, but such a monitoring station in an imperial world could be interrogated by a "merchant" on a regular basis and keep a record of any and all ships approaching key planets... just one question - do you need to "interrogate" a ship's transponder, or does it transmit as soon as it approaches a base? Would such a transmission (in either case) be tight-beam or a general broadcast?

you can go down this road for a long way - with move and counter-move and counter-counter-move until your head hurts... lol

I'm quite sure that is how the Cold-War game is played between the Imperium and the Zhodani...with the Imperium being the one to have to guess at the end, and keeps INI very, very busy! :twisted: 8)

Sector Fleets already gives us some insight as to transponder challenges, running "silent" with challenge and tightbeam confirmation only modes for the IN.

But all these aside, would you say the Zhodani Consulate capable of say supporting a small stellar buffer state created by an outside group if it served their interests against the Imperium? Especially if it denied the region territorially of any further Imperial Client States from forming? By Supporting, I mean passively allowing it to take shape, recognizing its sovereignty, and say..offering to help patrol its border worlds against Imperial mercenaries and privateers? Perhaps offer it TL14 goods & services until they could produce their own?

There are undoubtedly Zhodani Client states, one-world systems that the Zho get privileged trade rights and such at, much like the Imperium's Cs'...

Ever give any thought to that approach?

 

[rust]

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember the description of some covert
Zhodani activities in support of "friendly" neutral states against "hostile"
(or truly neutral) neutral states in at least one of the old Paranoia Press
supplements for Classic Traveller, perhaps SORAG or Vanguard Reaches
or both.

 

[BFalcon]

The cost of doing so would be worth a few ships a year - certainly in terms of running costs of the ships... but, if they kept a small (100dt), fast ship (J-4), they could be told of any intrusion long before they reached the borders of their space. Of course, it won't save against a fleet jumping into an empty region and using tankers to refuel for a deep jump, but it would allow them to routinely gather information from imperial-based traders (including possibly couriers to deep-cover agents inside the imperium) without drawing too much attention to themselves, but could with a thrust-6, jump-4 ship, could be through any blockade and jumping back to alert the fleet before the imperials were ready to jump onward.

So in short, I think that it would pay for itself to maintain the neutral zone, if only in terms of intelligence gathering (a neutral zone is less suspicious for a trader to visit than "enemy" territory) but also as the more obvious buffer between the major powers.

I can see the Imperials seeing things the same way - in Spinward Marches, the Duke of Regina, I think it is, has requested that the major fleets be pulled back, but he was overruled, but I can see that the Imperium would want to maintain *some* kind of buffer.

One thing that soviet jets used to do in the cold war was to fly directly towards the mid-german border and only veer off at the last minute to gauge western response times... that's the problem when you don't have any neutral border (the neutral zone between the powers was negligible where aircraft was concerned). I can see the Imperium and the Zhodani both wanting to avoid such an event occuring. So a neutral zone would probably be upheld and supported by both sides.

If nothing else, trying to woo a system is the only way to avoid another war - trying to take a system by force is a quick way to start one (or, if very good at smoothing things over quickly, to escalate tensions) - so both powers would have to employ bribes and incentives to support their side over the other. I can also see those systems playing both sides to get the best deals for as long as possible... preferably (from their perspective) not committing to either side.

I'm missing a few key books off that list, so I'm having to keep things general for the most part...

 

[rust]

But all these aside, would you say the Zhodani Consulate capable of say supporting a small stellar buffer state created by an outside group if it served their interests against the Imperium?

After some more thoughts about this, I think that the Zhodani would prefer
to do this in a more indirect way, for example by asking one of their alrea-
dy established client states to do it for them and providing it with the ne-
cessary means and some additional reward for this. The advantages would
be that the Imperium might be slower to realize what is going on and to
react to it when it is not immediately obvious that it is a Zhodani operation
and that there would be some deniability in the case that something went
badly wrong with the operation - the Zhodani diplomats could blame any
serious blunder on their client state.