How politically manipulative R the Zhodani: Foreign Affairs

[Liam Devlin]

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember the description of some covert
Zhodani activities in support of "friendly" neutral states against "hostile"
(or truly neutral) neutral states in at least one of the old Paranoia Press
supplements for Classic Traveller, perhaps SORAG or Vanguard Reaches
or both.

Herr Rust,

Aye, as do I. But Paranoia Press' materials have been de-canonized. However, I am sure (crossed fingers) that Aliens: Zhodani will cover what the Zhodani Consulate manages to do covertly in better clarity for us all!

 

[Liam Devlin]

The cost of doing so would be worth a few ships a year - certainly in terms of running costs of the ships... but, if they kept a small (100dt), fast ship (J-4), they could be told of any intrusion long before they reached the borders of their space. Of course, it won't save against a fleet jumping into an empty region and using tankers to refuel for a deep jump, but it would allow them to routinely gather information from imperial-based traders (including possibly couriers to deep-cover agents inside the imperium) without drawing too much attention to themselves, but could with a thrust-6, jump-4 ship, could be through any blockade and jumping back to alert the fleet before the imperials were ready to jump onward.

So in short, I think that it would pay for itself to maintain the neutral zone, if only in terms of intelligence gathering (a neutral zone is less suspicious for a trader to visit than "enemy" territory) but also as the more obvious buffer between the major powers.

I can see the Imperials seeing things the same way - in Spinward Marches, the Duke of Regina, I think it is, has requested that the major fleets be pulled back, but he was overruled, but I can see that the Imperium would want to maintain *some* kind of buffer.

Yes, and the political situation between Sector Admiral & Duchess Delphine of Mora is better spelled out in Sector Fleets, FYI about this very policy. Foreshadowing for the 5th Frontier War, if I may say so...

One thing that soviet jets used to do in the cold war was to fly directly towards the mid-german border and only veer off at the last minute to gauge western response times... that's the problem when you don't have any neutral border (the neutral zone between the powers was negligible where aircraft was concerned). I can see the Imperium and the Zhodani both wanting to avoid such an event occuring. So a neutral zone would probably be upheld and supported by both sides.

This is precisely how the 4th Frontier War was triggered at Quar...the chicken game went a step too far and shots were fired.

If nothing else, trying to woo a system is the only way to avoid another war - trying to take a system by force is a quick way to start one (or, if very good at smoothing things over quickly, to escalate tensions) - so both powers would have to employ bribes and incentives to support their side over the other. I can also see those systems playing both sides to get the best deals for as long as possible... preferably (from their perspective) not committing to either side.

Precisely the game playing in Arden between Consulate & Imperium, with Arden gaining from each side currently btw... :wink:

I'm missing a few key books off that list, so I'm having to keep things general for the most part...

You have your homework cut out for you then!

 

[Liam Devlin]

But all these aside, would you say the Zhodani Consulate capable of say supporting a small stellar buffer state created by an outside group if it served their interests against the Imperium?

After some more thoughts about this, I think that the Zhodani would prefer
to do this in a more indirect way, for example by asking one of their alrea-
dy established client states to do it for them and providing it with the ne-
cessary means and some additional reward for this. The advantages would
be that the Imperium might be slower to realize what is going on and to
react to it when it is not immediately obvious that it is a Zhodani operation
and that there would be some deniability in the case that something went
badly wrong with the operation - the Zhodani diplomats could blame any
serious blunder on their client state.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Precisely, Herr Rust! It would either succeed or fail based on the Client-state's efforts. The Consulate would (if their Cs was "victorious/ successful) offer thier support, etc, and so on. If it failed, then political denial is assured. An outright, overt operation would draw the Imperials in... this is what I meant by Zhodani foreign policy manipulation! Thank you sir!

 

[BFalcon]

But all these aside, would you say the Zhodani Consulate capable of say supporting a small stellar buffer state created by an outside group if it served their interests against the Imperium?

After some more thoughts about this, I think that the Zhodani would prefer
to do this in a more indirect way, for example by asking one of their alrea-
dy established client states to do it for them and providing it with the ne-
cessary means and some additional reward for this. The advantages would
be that the Imperium might be slower to realize what is going on and to
react to it when it is not immediately obvious that it is a Zhodani operation
and that there would be some deniability in the case that something went
badly wrong with the operation - the Zhodani diplomats could blame any
serious blunder on their client state.

That would be the longer, preferable method, yes - but there will be times when they need to directly counter Imperial diplomatic (or Intelligence) so will need to act quickly.

All major powers will use shadow agents, like puppet governments or fake corporations whenever possible - direct action will always be an emergency response, except where they want to be seen to be aiding an prospective client - after all, sometimes good publicity is a good thing. Just remember, though, that non-public aid will not garner any goodwill or good publicity... so they'd need to decide which is more important...

 

[Liam Devlin]

That would be the longer, preferable method, yes - but there will be times when they need to directly counter Imperial diplomatic (or Intelligence) so will need to act quickly.

All major powers will use shadow agents, like puppet governments or fake corporations whenever possible - direct action will always be an emergency response, except where they want to be seen to be aiding an prospective client - after all, sometimes good publicity is a good thing. Just remember, though, that non-public aid will not garner any goodwill or good publicity... so they'd need to decide which is more important...

Mssr BFalcon,

Then we should examine how far ahead the Zhodani Consulate's Foreign Office views things vis-a-vis the Imperium's Foreign Ministry. Grant you, nowadays we have in the US of A, a foreign policy that lurches about every 4-8 years at a time; the Uk, plans ahead 50 yrs at a time; China, plans ahead 100 years at a time. Do you get where I'm going here?

The Zhodani have since 576 - 1105 been doing their best at keeping the Imprial borders from getting any closer to theirs. This bespeaks of a long-term policy, does it not? Whereas in the marches, the Imperium's methodology has not changed on how it expands the borders...but the pace by which it does varies from time to time (even taking a backwards leap in the 3rd Frontier war).

 

[BFalcon]

Yes, and the political situation between Sector Admiral & Duchess Delphine of Mora is better spelled out in Sector Fleets, FYI about this very policy. Foreshadowing for the 5th Frontier War, if I may say so...

Yes, sounds like it might be - might have to pick up that book... I wasn't going to... darn it!

Precisely the game playing in Arden between Consulate & Imperium, with Arden gaining from each side currently btw... :wink:

A dangerous game - could easily blow up in their face if they're not careful...

I'm missing a few key books off that list, so I'm having to keep things general for the most part...

You have your homework cut out for you then!

Yeah, and after going self employed only 5 months ago, not much money to play with (read: next to none) so will be deciding which to get - can probably afford one - and I've got some green books to catch up on.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Yes, sounds like it might be - might have to pick up that book... I wasn't going to... darn it!

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=45753&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

My review is there of this book sir, among others.

Yeah, and after going self employed only 5 months ago, not much money to play with (read: next to none) so will be deciding which to get - can probably afford one - and I've got some green books to catch up on.

I just retired from the Army Reserves, and have 11more years till I see that fabled check. So, its back to my nightshift job here! I did wait till Sector Fleets was on sale though at DTRPG. I know where you're coming from money-wise, indeed!

 

[Liam Devlin]

Precisely the game playing in Arden between Consulate & Imperium, with Arden gaining from each side currently btw...

A dangerous game - could easily blow up in their face if they're not careful...

The Arden side of this intrigue is painted a bit more out in broad srokes in Starports, btw...as Arden's C-class starport merits a featured cameo as an example of a non-Imperial port within its pages...

 

[BFalcon]

Mssr BFalcon,

Then we should examine how far ahead the Zhodani Consulate's Foreign Office views things vis-a-vis the Imperium's Foreign Ministry. Grant you, nowadyas we have in the US of A, a foreign policy that lurches about every 4-8 years at a time; the Uk, plans ahead 50 yrs at a time; China, plans ahead 100 years at a time. Do you get where I'm going here?

I hear ya - not sure about the UK planning 50 years ahead though - I'm not even sure, sometimes, if they plan a year ahead, close to elections...

The Zhodani have since 576 - 1105 been doing their best at keeping the Imprial borders from getting any closer to theirs. This bespeaks of a long-term policy, does it not? Whereas in the marches, the Imperium's methodology has not changed on how it expands the borders...but the pace by which it does varies from time to time (even taking a backwards leap in the 3rd Frontier war).

Indeed it does, Mr Devlin... it mainly depends on how long the Zhodani government is in power for (it's gone 2am here, so forgive me if I don't go look it up right now). Just looked it up online and they're in power (each) for an Olympiad (3 years), so I don't know if they're likely to plan ahead too long... even with so many layers of democracy, they may change their mind on operations regularly. On the other hand, it might be that they look further ahead, depending on how far down the process the policy making goes...

 

[steelbrok]

I have to disagree with some of this. With the possible exception of the first, the Imperium has not been the agressor in any of the frontier wars. Nor has it expanded any border in centuries.

Even the incorporation of D268 is proceeding at a sub glacial pace (500 years since the District was established!)

Really, the Imperium stopped expanding after the first frontier war and the subsequent civil war.

 

[Liam Devlin]

I have to disagree with some of this. With the possible exception of the first, the Imperium has not been the agressor in any of the frontier wars. Nor has it expanded any border in centuries.

Even the incorporation of D268 is proceeding at a sub glacial pace (500 years since the District was established!)

Really, the Imperium stopped expanding after the first frontier war and the subsequent civil war.

Mssr Steelbrok,

You're more than welcome to disagree!

The Zhodani expelled Imperial settlers spinwards of the Marches and the Imperial Navy struck back--1st FW; The Zhodani initiate the 2nd & 3rd FW's; the 4th FW spins out of a shooting-chicken incident at the Imperial Naval base built at the Client State world of Quar (technically the Imps fired upon the Zho who were doing a show of force--both sides declare war here); 5th FW--the Zhodani initiate it. No worlds change hands permaqnently, and the status quo remained...

No arguments as to who shot who/ who fired first, Mssr Steelbrok! None. But the overall objective--keeping the Imperial border far enough away from the Consulate's borders is the foreign policy effort exerted by the Zhodani throughout.

YES, Imperial expansion has been slowed to a glacial creep--a sure sign of success! And in some instances, like the 3rd FW, the Imperium even lost worlds. The entire exercise of the FW's is just that--halt the Imperium's expansion closer towards the Consulate's.

Remember, Imperial goods can be found 11 parsecs or so across every Imperial border... and after the trade ships comes the offer of Client Status; after conformity has been achieved does the Cs become an Imperial World. In this instance, ever pushing the borders in search of markets & such, the Imperial border *creeps* and expands.

The Zhodani settled their borders in -1000, and if they have any expansion, its to corewards if at all. Who is aggressor and who is not when viewed through this lens becomes a different angle, does it not? Again, taking the long-view.

 

[Stainless]

The Zhodani expelled Imperial settlers spinwards of the Marches and the Imperial Navy struck back--1st FW; The Zhodani initiate the 2nd & 3rd FW's; the 4th FW spins out of a shooting-chicken incident at the Imperial Naval base built at the Client State world of Quar (technically the Imps fired upon the Zho who were doing a show of force--both sides declare war here); 5th FW--the Zhodani initiate it. No worlds change hands permaqnently, and the status quo remained...

No arguments as to who shot who/ who fired first

Sadly I see you've swallowed the Imperial propaganda hook line and sinker. Flaccid minds such as yours and the sociological 'mind control' of the Imperium clearly show themselves for the threat they are and so we must be doubly on our guard against the Imperium. I will have to send a report up to the next committee recommending that Mr Devlin be re-educated as soon as is expedient.

 

[rust]

With the possible exception of the first, the Imperium has not been the agressor in any of the frontier wars. Nor has it expanded any border in centuries.

Hmm ... the Third Frontier War started when the Imperium expanded into
the Five Sisters Subsector, the Fourth Frontier War started when the Im-
perium established a naval base on Quar on the Zhodani border ...

 

[BFalcon]

Sadly I see you've swallowed the Imperial propaganda hook line and sinker. Flaccid minds such as yours and the sociological 'mind control' of the Imperium clearly show themselves for the threat they are and so we must be doubly on our guard against the Imperium. I will have to send a report up to the next committee recommending that Mr Devlin be re-educated as soon as is expedient.

:lol:

Nicely done... that's almost sig-worthy...

 

[Rick]

With the possible exception of the first, the Imperium has not been the agressor in any of the frontier wars. Nor has it expanded any border in centuries.

Hmm ... the Third Frontier War started when the Imperium expanded into
the Five Sisters Subsector, the Fourth Frontier War started when the Im-
perium established a naval base on Quar on the Zhodani border ...

Very good point. Two things we can learn from our world's history is that an agressor is not always the one who shoots first, and history is always (re?) written by the winners. It's often best to read a little between the lines of any 'historical' account of a war! :twisted:

 

[rust]

Yep, just think of the Cuban Missile Crisis. If it would have started a war,
the USA would almost certainly have fired the first shot, and therefore
would have become "the aggressor".

 

[DFW]

:arrow: I am specifically looking at how we as Gamers & refs portray them, given what we know of their activities, and presume to be their initiatives in the realm of trade, exploration, and foreign policy that they as a State conduct--

Hmm, well all indications are that they are a totalitarian gov that holds its society together through psionics and by depriving its citizens of natural human rights.

Such a gov is going to be VERY active on the propaganda front when it comes to foreign affairs. All data about internal activities will only come from official gov organs. There will be no free access granted to outsiders to its empire as it must cover up its atrocities and put on its happy "Workers Paradise" face.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Sadly I see you've swallowed the Imperial propaganda hook line and sinker. Flaccid minds such as yours and the sociological 'mind control' of the Imperium clearly show themselves for the threat they are and so we must be doubly on our guard against the Imperium. I will have to send a report up to the next committee recommending that Mr Devlin be re-educated as soon as is expedient.

Somewhere aboard the Shivva-class Patrol Frigate 'Star-Light', 12 LY from Ninjar...

"Intendant Devliepr has been showing distressing signs of undue stress related to his Deviant-Sociological/anthropological studies in Fessor, Reidain, and Urnian subsectors of the Non-practioner human races found there. It is the commendation of I, & Admiral Tliequa Breviashav to have him recalled for treatment at the Tvarchedl facility at Ninjar."

--signed Professor Drazhviepr,
Chairman of Foreign Studies,
University of Cronor, Foreven/Delta Quadrant.

:wink: :twisted: :lol:

 

[Liam Devlin]

Hmm, well all indications are that they are a totalitarian gov that holds its society together through psionics and by depriving its citizens of natural human rights.

Such a gov is going to be VERY active on the propaganda front when it comes to foreign affairs. All data about internal activities will only come from official gov organs. There will be no free access granted to outsiders to its empire as it must cover up its atrocities and put on its happy "Workers Paradise" face.

I would dare they are not, DFW a pure "totalitarian government" per-se. They are as described a Psionic-democracy: those with the talent, get the right to vote.
:arrow: True the Proletariat (Proles) vastly outnumber the Psion-Intendants & Psion Nobles, so their is a self-perpetual oligarchy over the masses, which some can construe as "totalitarian".
:arrow: MgT, Spinward Marches, p.59--"Government takes the form of officials elected from and by a ruling class of nobles. This is not a true democracy as the franchised class is so small, but nor is it quite the same thing as oligarchical rule."
:arrow: MgT, Spinward Marches, p.74--Critics of the Zhodani and its "stable society" enjoy pointing at Asmodeus/Querion ss/SM where it broke down and a nuclear conflict broke out on the world a century ago (circa 1005). The Consulate has allowed the radioactive dust to settle and is only now beginning a reconstruction effort there."

Concur: No doubt the Consulate filters its media, and from CT-AM4 Zhodani, there is even a strong patriotic sense of nationalism in the proletariat. As for covering up "atrocities"...it would seem the Zhodani refrain from any comments (Asmodeus example, e.g.) about such matters.

 

[DFW]

I would dare they are not, DFW a pure "totalitarian government" per-se. They are as described a Psionic-democracy: those with the talent, get the right to vote.

Brought to you by the Zhodani Dept. of Propaganda. :lol:

Gotta love it. That was a perfect response Liam!