How politically manipulative R the Zhodani: Foreign Affairs

rust said:
steelbrok said:
With the possible exception of the first, the Imperium has not been the agressor in any of the frontier wars. Nor has it expanded any border in centuries.
Hmm ... the Third Frontier War started when the Imperium expanded into
the Five Sisters Subsector, the Fourth Frontier War started when the Im-
perium established a naval base on Quar on the Zhodani border ...

I beg to differ a smidge here, Herr Rust... and add a wee bit more to the tale:

The initial human settlement there in 5-Sisters/ ex-D-267 began in mid 500's-600's by Imperial settlers. Imperial designation called it District 267 (from 610-740), and then under Paulo I, "The 5-Sisters' ss in a concerted effort set to colonize it; this colonization halted during the Psionic suppressions of 800. It resumed in the late 900's, and this further expansion as well as the Research base at Retinae/Querion triggered the war.

By the Armistice, the Zhodani occupied several worlds in Querion (E), had several ceded to them in Jewell (B); and created a DMZ in Vilis (F) of several parsecs (about where the Arden Federation is now arising).

It also allows the Zhodani a more or less Imperial Cs-free corridor to both Arden, and the Sword Worlds...

1st FW--589 to 604
2nd FW--615 to 622
3rd FW--976 to 989
4th FW--1082 to 1084
 
DFW said:
Liam Devlin said:
I would dare they are not, DFW a pure "totalitarian government" per-se. They are as described a Psionic-democracy: those with the talent, get the right to vote.

Brought to you by the Zhodani Dept. of Propaganda. :lol:

Gotta love it. That was a perfect response Liam!

Somewhere aboard an armed Type ZM-400dt Zhodani Trader, 'Jeweled-Merit', belonging to Ladria Tlovl Lines, approx. 80 LY rimwards-spinwards of Ninjar....

"Admiral Breviashav and Chairman Drazhviepr have recalled me from the field for an enforced vacation on Ninjar. I suppose it was my horrifying aberrant curiosity into the deviant minds of the Solomani, Darrian, Darrian-Aslan, and Mixed-Vilani I have encountered here in the Border worlds. The truth is a two-edged sword, the Ancient Quiknavra texts foretell. Regardless of my fate, the data is first person recorded, and cannot be disounted as invalid. Perhaps recording the opinionated thoughts of the Deviants has made me sympathetic to them.

I am not sure of any guilt or innocence in the matter, but am confident I can clear my name of this spurious charge, and regain my position."

--Dr. Devliepr,
Sociologist & Deviant Anthropologist,
University of Cronor/ Cronor.
 
As for the Zhodani government, I tend to see their system as a kind of
Aristocracy, not much different from the system in many early modern
European states (ca. 1800 to 1900). In many of these states, the only re-
quirements for a government position were noble birth, at least a mini-
mum of skill, and the informal membership in a "network" of influential
people. In the case of the Zhodani, psionic talent replaces noble birth,
but otherwise I do not see any fundamental differences. Therefore I he-
sitate to call the Zhodani system "totalitarian", in my view it is a lot mo-
re like, for example, pre-Victorian Britain than like Stalin's Soviet Union.

Whether one considers the "thought police" a totalitarian institution de-
pends a lot on whether one sees it as a kind of secret police or as a
kind of social service, and also whether one considers major deviati-
ons from a society's norms, like crime, as a mental illness that should
be avoided and cured instead of punished.
 
rust said:
As for the Zhodani government, I tend to see their system as a kind of
Aristocracy, not much different from the system in many early modern
European states (ca. 1800 to 1900). In many of these states, the only re-
quirements for a government position were noble birth, at least a mini-
mum of skill, and the informal membership in a "network" of influential
people. In the case of the Zhodani, psionic talent replaces noble birth,
but otherwise I do not see any fundamental differences. Therefore I he-
sitate to call the Zhodani system "totalitarian", in my view it is a lot mo-
re like, for example, pre-Victorian Britain than like Stalin's Soviet Union.

Whether one considers the "thought police" a totalitarian institution de-
pends a lot on whether one sees it as a kind of secret police or as a
kind of social service, and also whether one considers major deviati-
ons from a society's norms, like crime, as a mental illness that should
be avoided and cured instead of punished.

I tend to concur on your analysis, Herr Rust. The Zhodani-Nobility, and the Intendant class of sub-Nobles serving below them have distinct feudal-obligations of looking after their Proles--in keeping them productive, happy, and free from criminal behavior and thought patterns. There is more examples of upward/downward noblesse oblige' here than in most Imperial Noble Houses, with a definitive edge:

Successful Nobles get elected/ selected to run in higher Consuls, until one achieves a Seat on the Supreme Consul Board, or after one's term there, one of the Advisory Senior Consul-members. Unsuccessful Nobles will doubtless not achive greatness, and maybe removed from office--there being a direct sucess/or failure theme built into their governing system.

On the "personal freedoms" issue many of the pro-Imperium side takes up, certainly the right to be free and be a criminal to rob, cheat, kill, maim, and cause mischief has been eliminated, as well as the franchise of voting. But then again, how many Imperial worlds have the vote anyways?
 
Liam

don't forget we have an example of a Zho client state in Adv 4 Leviathan. Its a world in the ourim void, TL4ish, psionic rulers who either blank the memory of unwelcome vistors and cause large groups to fight amongst themselves - telepathic suggestion. It gets an occasional zho patrol frigate doing the showing the flag tour.

One of the Vargr books mentions the zho dealing with vargr corsairs. They have been known to capture and re-educate troublesome pirate leaders.

Cheers
Richard
 
RichardP said:
Liam

don't forget we have an example of a Zho client state in Adv 4 Leviathan. Its a world in the ourim void, TL4ish, psionic rulers who either blank the memory of unwelcome vistors and cause large groups to fight amongst themselves - telepathic suggestion. It gets an occasional zho patrol frigate doing the showing the flag tour.

One of the Vargr books mentions the zho dealing with vargr corsairs. They have been known to capture and re-educate troublesome pirate leaders.

Cheers
Richard

Richard,

I have the deadtree of Leviathan somewhere back at the Manor; do you recall the planet & Subsector wherein this happened? Its useful to know where the Zc worlds are, after all... :twisted: 8)

Yes, MgT's Aliens: Vargr, p. 111 does, and also states that afte a show of force against piracy, peaceful relations were established. However, in Llanic Subsector (M), there is still a problem with corsair traffic against the Zho, Non-aligned Vargr, Nona-ligned human, and cross-border into the Imperium yet today.
 
The planet in question is probably Pa'an in Egyrn Subsector.

http://jtas.net/travelleratlas/Sectors/Trojan_Reaches/Egyrn/Paan_World.html
 
RichardP said:
Liam

don't forget we have an example of a Zho client state in Adv 4 Leviathan. Its a world in the ourim void, TL4ish, psionic rulers who either blank the memory of unwelcome vistors and cause large groups to fight amongst themselves - telepathic suggestion. It gets an occasional zho patrol frigate doing the showing the flag tour.

One of the Vargr books mentions the zho dealing with vargr corsairs. They have been known to capture and re-educate troublesome pirate leaders.

Cheers
Richard

Traveller's societies are written just vaguely enough that it takes little work to tip them either direction, really. The Zhodani social structure *works*, but it takes a LOT of work to keep it going. The Intendents aren't sitting around waiting for retirement, and nobles who don't pay attention to the masses may find the Regional Council asking them some pointed questions. Consular worlds DO fail, and not always due to outside influences.

Evidence suggests that the various Zhodani Client States are given almost as much leeway as Imperial Clients have. Many ally with the Consulate because they see the Imperium as a threat. A threat to *what* varies from case to case, of course. Others align with the Zhodani because of their own internal politics, or simply because occasional visits by the Consular Navy keeps the savages beyond the border at bay. Zhodani Nobles have, by right of their talents, a certain amount of mental privacy, and often extend this unconsciously to others with mental shields. As a result, some of the Clients are going to be unsavory characters behind their psionic shields, but won't be called to the carpet unless they make a big mistake they can't hide from the Zhodani.
 
All this talk has now got me wondering if I can afford the Zhodani book this month or have to wait another month... :(

I might wait until the errata is out... :)
 
GypsyComet said:
Traveller's societies are written just vaguely enough that it takes little work to tip them either direction, really. The Zhodani social structure *works*, but it takes a LOT of work to keep it going. The Intendents aren't sitting around waiting for retirement, and nobles who don't pay attention to the masses may find the Regional Council asking them some pointed questions. Consular worlds DO fail, and not always due to outside influences.

Indeed, as Asmodeus did in Querion subsector...<nods>

Evidence suggests that the various Zhodani Client States are given almost as much leeway as Imperial Clients have. Many ally with the Consulate because they see the Imperium as a threat. A threat to *what* varies from case to case, of course. Others align with the Zhodani because of their own internal politics, or simply because occasional visits by the Consular Navy keeps the savages beyond the border at bay. Zhodani Nobles have, by right of their talents, a certain amount of mental privacy, and often extend this unconsciously to others with mental shields. As a result, some of the Clients are going to be unsavory characters behind their psionic shields, but won't be called to the carpet unless they make a big mistake they can't hide from the Zhodani.

Hmmm.

I like the sounds of this. :twisted: 8)

"Keeping the savages beyond the border at bay"... Question for you then, Mssr Gypsy Comet--The difference betwen "allies" & "allied Client States" is what?

Supposing there is an anti-Imperial bunch of aliens who have their own agenda in expansionistic ideas, and advance these through warfare & such (your 'savages' per se). Now as a Psionic using race, with the ability to manipulate minds with ideas and such, and the good sense of long-term policy looking at thwarting Imperial foreign policy & expansion out of the Marches, would you think the Zhodani clever enough to manipulate affairs to their advantage, and allow said 'savages' to knock off several wishy-washy troublesome Non-aligned worlds to establish them as a veritable "allied state"--not a true Cs in order to have their assets available to block Imperial aligned commerce raiders/ and remove worlds from possible Imperial Client Status achievement--Especially if there were also diplomatic and trade gains to be made by inviting said savages into position there?

metaphorically speaking, if your enemy has invited wolves in to his far pasture, but domesticates them to attack you; and another pack of wolves shows up on your doorstep, do you as a Zhodani manipulate the wolves to eat the sheep between your enemy and yourself, knowing at any time you can crush them yourself with ease?

Your thoughts sir?
 
Would the Zhodani use the Sword Worlds or the Vargr as military instru-
ments against the Darrians and against non-aligned "hostiles" along the
border ? 8)
 
rust said:
Would the Zhodani use the Sword Worlds or the Vargr as military instru-
ments against the Darrians and against non-aligned "hostiles" along the
border ? 8)

I think Traveller's History in the Marches of the Zhodani shows a pattern of just that, Herr Rust.

To answer my definition of the diff between Allies & Client States, I see the Sword Worlds as a Zhodani "Ally"--they remain an independent state outside the Consulate, and with their territorial disputes between the Imperium and the Darrians, a natural fitting catspaw to play off betwen the two powers.

A Client State is usually dependent on the greater power to some extent; they may or may not have the ability to defend themselves, or lend vessels into a war effort, but they offer a safe harbor and an astrographical stepping stone closer to one's enemies usually. (I've been reading the Cinnabar series by David Drake for two weeks, so I am duly interested here). They share a common enemy Like Mssr GypsyComet has pointed out, and maybe other things, but they require the outside protection/ economic influcence of the greater partner to some degree.

And in understanding the eternal quest for Charisma among the Vargr, they (the Zhodani) have not removed the temptation of harnessing the Vargr against the Imperium in their OutWorld Coalition efforts in at least three of the past four Frontier Wars, undoubtedly they will again as the 5th FW looms on the horizon.

Lastly, a telling & chilling remark overheard in-game (Traveller) between a warlike alien NPC and a human in the Imperial Navy (player) comes to mind....

"Do not mistake my generosity for weakness. We are allies, true; we are not friends."

edited for spelling
 
Liam Devlin[i said:
"]Keeping the savages beyond the border at bay"[/i]... Question for you then, Mssr Gypsy Comet--The difference betwen "allies" & "allied Client States" is what?
Allies are more likely to be ideologically distinct and have existed before a relationship was undertaken with either the Imperium or the Consulate.

Client States are more likely to have been started with the aid, or at least the blessing, of the larger Patron State, are morely likely to share a good chunk of the ideology of the Patron State, and probably depend, to some extent, on that relationship for some element of defence.

The Darrians are Imperial allies, as the Sword Worlds usually fall out as Consulate allies. Both are quite distinct, existed before the relationship, and need no help for security of their borders unless the opposing empire is involved. I would not class either as "Client States".

The Avelar Consulate in Foreven, as well as a number of individual worlds in Foreven, District 268, and nearby space, are more correctly Client States of either the Imperium or the Consulate. While most existed in some form prior to forming that relationship, most are also ideologically close to their patron state and are, with the likely exception of the Avelar, dependent on the Patron State for border maintenance.

Supposing there is an anti-Imperial bunch of aliens who have their own agenda in expansionistic ideas, and advance these through warfare & such (your 'savages' per se). Now as a Psionic using race, with the ability to manipulate minds with ideas and such, and the good sense of long-term policy looking at thwarting Imperial foreign policy & expansion out of the Marches, would you think the Zhodani clever enough to manipulate affairs to their advantage, and allow said 'savages' to knock off several wishy-washy troublesome Non-aligned worlds to establish them as a veritable "allied state"--not a true Cs in order to have their assets available to block Imperial aligned commerce raiders/ and remove worlds from possible Imperial Client Status achievement--Especially if there were also diplomatic and trade gains to be made by inviting said savages into position there?

metaphorically speaking, if your enemy has invited wolves in to his far pasture, but domesticates them to attack you; and another pack of wolves shows up on your doorstep, do you as a Zhodani manipulate the wolves to eat the sheep between your enemy and yourself, knowing at any time you can crush them yourself with ease?

Your thoughts sir?

This will vary with the specific border, politics at home, among the enemy, and amongst the "wolves". Obviously it will vary over time as well. The Imperium is content to establish its borders through direct conflict, and rarely indulges in the establishment or engagement of buffer states unless they are already present and initiate the relationship.

The Consulate, on the other hand, is done expanding and knows it. As such, the desire to pacify the areas beyond their borders are not "until we get around to conquering it" but a longer term desire to stabilize their own border issues. As such, if someone else wants to "own" a few systems beyond the Consulate, be good neighbors, and provide stability to that piece of the Consulate border just by proximity, so much the better. This is most obvious along the Consulate's Trailing and Rimward borders, as the Zhodani create and/or support buffer states between themselves and the howling wilderness of the Beyond (to rimward) and the teeming chaos of Vargr space to trailing. That the scattered states of Far Frontiers and Yiklerzdanzh are NOT quiet and secure is annoying to them, but both sectors have established balances of power that keep most open hostility from the Consulate border.
 
GypsyComet said:
Allies are more likely to be ideologically distinct and have existed before a relationship was undertaken with either the Imperium or the Consulate.

Client States are more likely to have been started with the aid, or at least the blessing, of the larger Patron State, are morely likely to share a good chunk of the ideology of the Patron State, and probably depend, to some extent, on that relationship for some element of defence.

The Darrians are Imperial allies, as the Sword Worlds usually fall out as Consulate allies. Both are quite distinct, existed before the relationship, and need no help for security of their borders unless the opposing empire is involved. I would not class either as "Client States".

Concur.

This will vary with the specific border, politics at home, among the enemy, and amongst the "wolves". Obviously it will vary over time as well. The Imperium is content to establish its borders through direct conflict, and rarely indulges in the establishment or engagement of buffer states unless they are already present and initiate the relationship.

The Consulate, on the other hand, is done expanding and knows it. As such, the desire to pacify the areas beyond their borders are not "until we get around to conquering it" but a longer term desire to stabilize their own border issues. As such, if someone else wants to "own" a few systems beyond the Consulate, be good neighbors, and provide stability to that piece of the Consulate border just by proximity, so much the better. This is most obvious along the Consulate's Trailing and Rimward borders, as the Zhodani create and/or support buffer states between themselves and the howling wilderness of the Beyond (to rimward) and the teeming chaos of Vargr space to trailing. That the scattered states of Far Frontiers and Yiklerzdanzh are NOT quiet and secure is annoying to them, but both sectors have established balances of power that keep most open hostility from the Consulate border.

Thank you sir! While I have two weeks to see my hardcopy of Aliens: Zhodani, I wanted to be sure I was on sound thinking ground here for what I have in mind of writing as my co-author & I flesh out the Delta Quadrant of Foreven. :twisted: 8)
 
Liam Devlin said:
I wanted to be sure I was on sound thinking ground here for what I have in mind of writing as my co-author & I flesh out the Delta Quadrant of Foreven. :twisted: 8)

Ah, Foreven. How many versions are running around the net already?
 
GypsyComet said:
Ah, Foreven. How many versions are running around the net already?
In my view, surprisingly few. Until now Mongoose's Foreven License has
not exactly been a great success, I can count the publications using it on
two fingers.
 
rust said:
GypsyComet said:
Ah, Foreven. How many versions are running around the net already?
In my view, surprisingly few. Until now Mongoose's Foreven License has
not exactly been a great success, I can count the publications using it on
two fingers.

I count three, Herr Rust....

Two done by K-Studio's Travis Leichssenring
Denizens I & Denizens II: Biaxial System,

and Spica's SP101 Field Manual...
 
rust said:
Ah, I missed one of the Denizens books. :)

Not hard to do Herr Rust! Denizens I is a book of NPC's to be used in the Denizens II book's region of Foreven, Subsector M. Nicely illustrated, detailed NPC's--CG work in Poser IIRC. Was what turned me & my co-author Mssr Bryan Gibson into looking into working the opposite quadrant up in Spica's lane.


Most people know Bryan for his artwork, but he writes very tightly plotted stuff. Keeps me on track he does!
 
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