How much will Imperium interfere?

[Jeraa]

The Rules of War of the 3rd Imperium wouldn't really matter here anyway- if WW2 Earth was part of any Imperium, it would of been the 1st. So, what would the Vilani do?

And who cares what the "official" answer would be? We're already talking about something that could of only happened in an alternate universe anyway.

As far as I know, there isn't even a consensus about how the 3rd Imperium is viewed. Some paint it as benevolent, others as oppressive and corrupt. Until that can be answered, you can't really say how the Imperium would approach a situation.

 

[RichardP]

Imperial rules of war are detailed in the striker books (book 2).

It states imperial intervention is triggered by possession or use of nukes, any action that prevents a quick return to pre-war conditions - so large scale civilian losses, contamination of raw materials or agricultural land, mass destruction of transport and industrial facilities.

It does allow for localised destruction of such targets for immediate local gain or slective destruction of transport / industry to cripple strategic industries but not indescriminate destruction.

So no carpet bombing of cities, fire bombing of cities, the U boat campaign, nuking of japan. civilian losses would cover any widespread death camps.

Widespread use of chemical / germ warfare triggers intervention on the loss of civilians rule, but localised use of non-persistant agents or non-lethal agents would probably be okay

Given the 3I's role of protecting trade and member worlds, supporting pirates, waging war on other planets would also trigger intervention

JTAS 14 states that imperial high crimes include piracy, slavery murder of imperial officials, treason, succession, theft of imperial property. I imagine that any of these would allow the 3I to intervene if they wanted to - so don't shoot the imperial observers!

Given what we know about several canon high law worlds, indentured servitude, and harsh "law enforcement" is tolerated.

Cheers
Richard

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Interesting thread. I think a lot will depend on the sector and sub-sector leadership, and at what point they deem intervention is expediant.

Of course, one answer could be to just red zone the whole planet.

(I suspect that if the IISS found "Earth" today, that would be their response, its not just that Earth is balkenised, but contains far too much active conflict, and far too many nukes. "Form a stable world government, Earthlings, and get rid of your nuclear weapons, then we will talk about inter stellar trade". In the interim an interdiction squadron bases itself on the moon.)

If "Earth" was already a member(Edit, in the 1930s), the views of the Count allocated to earth would be listened to very carefully by the various "balkanised" governments. He might not "rule" the planet, but could have tremendous diplomatic influence and might well be able to avert a planetary "world war", if he chose to do so.

If you start to think through a "Earth" of the 1930s already part of a "3I", then lots of other parts of History would start to look very different.

Egil

 

[GJD]

If you start to think through a "Earth" of the 1930s already part of a "3I", then lots of other parts of History would start to look very different.

Egil

Not the least of which was that Germany was, at that time, arguably the most technologically advanced nation on the planet. It's entierly possible that if the 3I had discovered earth in the late 1930's, the first starport could have ben an adjunct to Berlin Templehof Aerodrome.

G.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

If you start to think through a "Earth" of the 1930s already part of a "3I", then lots of other parts of History would start to look very different.

Egil

Not the least of which was that Germany was, at that time, arguably the most technologically advanced nation on the planet. It's entierly possible that if the 3I had discovered earth in the late 1930's, the first starport could have ben an adjunct to Berlin Templehof Aerodrome.

G.

Hardly, the Nazis could not cope with earthly Homo Sapiens who they considered to be "different", they would have completely freaked out had intergalatic "aliens" turned up.

Very debateable wether Germany was more advanced than USA, GB or France, from the point of view of TL15, would have all looked much the same.

Assuming the 3I decides to make contact (and not just red zone the planet), somewhere else in Europe with plenty of cheap land (France?) and/or the USA (after a little research the scouts will work out that the US is already the biggest econonmy in the world) would make sense, close to economic centres and many markets.

Egil

 

[barnest2]

The bombing of (most) german cities did have a strategic target, disrupting production and/or rail traffic. The low tech nature did not provide for precision but the main aim was military, not "kill them all"

Did they heck:
Explain the bombing of Luebeck? It was a medieval coastal town that was very pretty. And we burnt it to the ground, just because we could.

ETA:
I thought I would go into more detail.
Most of the Allied bombing attacks were vengeance strikes under the guise of strategic aims. For a long time, we couldn't get troops onto the mainland, so bombing was really the only option for striking back. These huge bombing raids did very little strategically. Did you know that in 1945 in Berlin, Production of small arms actually increased, and the U and S-bahn were operating daily, even while Berlin was under siege, and under daily air attack by fleets of bombers?
There were outliers. The Dambuster raids stopped production in those areas for a good two weeks or so, which was a smashing success.
These bombing raids were fantastic for morale. "Look at how many tonnes of bombs we're dropped on the damned Nazi's, aren't we doing good."
Even the Blitz did little but demoralise the British. It was very hard to successfully bomb a train station enough to put it out of action for any length of time.

That was all a little confused, but it gets my point across.

 

[rust]

Hardly, the Nazis could not cope with earthly Homo Sapiens who they considered to be "different", they would have completely freaked out had intergalatic "aliens" turned up.

It would depend on the specific year of contact, the German government
of 1932 would probably have welcomed the Vilani, because their influence
could have helped a lot to prevent the Nazis' rise to power: Additional op-
portunities to reduce the budget crisis and the unemployment and new po-
werful friends to end the isolation and alleviate the inferiority complex ...

 

[barnest2]

Same for UBoat war. Strategic aim (disrupt the british supply lines)

And once again, to stereotype completely, the Germans show us Brits how to be damned efficient.
The U-boat war was a strategic aim, and it worked. Horribly nasty stuff though.
Sorry to put this in another post, but I saw rust had posted

 

[locarno24]

Hardly, the Nazis could not cope with earthly Homo Sapiens who they considered to be "different", they would have completely freaked out had intergalatic "aliens" turned up.

They were big into any sort of 'superhuman' mythos. So it'd depend how the approach was made.

Hopefully, it'd have avoided the worst consequences - contact with alien races is possibly the best solution to racism; in Terry Pratchett's words "black and white live in perfect harmony and gang up on green".

Assuming the 3I decides to make contact (and not just red zone the planet), somewhere else in Europe with plenty of cheap land (France?) and/or the USA (after a little research the scouts will work out that the US is already the biggest econonmy in the world) would make sense, close to economic centres and many markets.

Depends. The US is the largest single economy pre WWII but is not (yet) a par for the combined economies of western europe. As putting startown somewhere on Continental Europe makes sense. The relative importance of France/Germany/Russia/Britain will depend on if contact was made early enough to affect WWI as well.....

Of course, the big decider would be what the 3I and the various nations hope to get out of this. Certainly the economic dynamics would change a lot - access (albeit at a high cost) to imported fusion tech would render the arabian gulf and southern soviet republics merely 'nice-to-haves' instead of critical war aims, and removing oil/coal as a key need for Imperial Japan would notably change the dynamic in the pacific.

 

[rust]

Of course, the big decider would be what the 3I and the various nations hope to get out of this. Certainly the economic dynamics would change a lot - access (albeit at a high cost) to imported fusion tech would render the arabian gulf and southern soviet republics merely 'nice-to-haves' instead of critical war aims, and removing oil/coal as a key need for Imperial Japan would notably change the dynamic in the pacific.

And think of the opportunity for Germany to gain "Lebensraum" through
colonization of other planets instead of war, coming at a time when Ger-
many was rather interested and advanced in the space sciences. This
alone would have undermined the Nazis' entire war propaganda.

 

[kafka]

The Rules of War of the 3rd Imperium wouldn't really matter here anyway- if WW2 Earth was part of any Imperium, it would of been the 1st. So, what would the Vilani do?

And who cares what the "official" answer would be? We're already talking about something that could of only happened in an alternate universe anyway.

As far as I know, there isn't even a consensus about how the 3rd Imperium is viewed. Some paint it as benevolent, others as oppressive and corrupt. Until that can be answered, you can't really say how the Imperium would approach a situation.

Without putting words into the original poster's mouth...but to keep the discussion lively and interesting. I think what the intent of the thread would be "What If" there was a similar TL5 balkanized world - what would the Imperium do?

The short answer still remains nothing. Long answer, I and others explained. Nothing.

Sanctions and direct retaliation by Imperium might lead to dismantling the United States government (remember the Imperium is not a democracy but an aristocracy therefore, it mind find even elements of Imperial Japan more favorable form of government) for using nuclear weapons would be a real possibility. Perhaps, even awarding parts of its terrorities to the Axis or direct Imperial rule.

As for what it would do with the rest of the powers, it would depend how quickly their could their ducks in line with the Imperial authorities. If there was an immediate cease fire after the rules of war were violated or Imperial authority broached...those powers that stood with the Imperium would have their new possessions ie real estate recognized by the Imperium.

Much of what is questioned by the last poster is strange. If the world is a member of the Imperium then they have knowledge of the Imperium even if the bulk of the world's population does not. Therefore, there is no reason to believe that Nazis would not find difficult to reconcile their provincial policies with the larger Imperium. However, they could cite that they are the original colonists and the rest of the people on the world deserve to be treated as second class. The Imperium would tolerate this, as long as the Nazis did not try to impose this rule in Imperial territory. And, if the Nazis were smart they would seek the membership in the Imperium and have their ranks transfered into Imperial titles thereby consolidating the bond between the regime and the hegemon. Think of Star Trek and the Patterns of Force...save there is no valiant Captain saving the day...but rather a Captain there to enforce the status quo (the role play by the original devil's advocate in the episode).

 

[locarno24]

As far as I know, there isn't even a consensus about how the 3rd Imperium is viewed. Some paint it as benevolent, others as oppressive and corrupt.

Given the extent to which Imperial authority is decentralized, it's quite feasible for it to be 'both at once' depending on where and with which sector/subsector/planetary nobility you find yourself dealing.

 

[barnest2]

Most of the Allied bombing attacks were vengeance strikes under the guise of strategic aims.

Note this sentence from my original post.
There were some, numerous attacks, that were strategic. But many were just "kill some Germans" because strategic strikes would not be particularly effective, because of the bombers innacuracies.
Your example is a very important one as an interesting outlier from the main. And is very interesting just from a historical point of view. What's the town called?

 

[locarno24]

Of course the counter-argument is "It's easy to be moral when you're the one with the precision-guided weapons" - air raids simply seeking to 'break the enemy's spirit' (universal code for "murder their civilians en masse") were a tempting option at least partly because they were possible. Both sides were completely in love with the utterly flawed* concept of strategic bombing, and frankly, were desperate for anything they could do to justify their own existance.

Assuming, again, that for sufficient export credit the major powers could access limited stocks of TL12 hardware and/or merc units, an observer then has a reasonable expectation that some degree of precision will be employed in attacking industrial/infrastructure targets.



* Didn't work in WWI, didn't work (for either side) in WWII, didn't work in Vietnam, didn't work in Afghanistan and isn't working in Libya. Note that I'm not ragging on airpower per se, rather on strategic bombing compared to using airpower for mobility or for close air support.

 

[locarno24]

Airforce. We will solve all problems(1)

(1) Monday-Thursday, 09:00-17:00, Friday 09:00-15:00, no service during cloudy, windy or rainy days, no service below 5000m if enemy has AAA

For a good statistical assessment of just how utterly fail the bombing campaigns (of both sides) were, have a read of the associated chapter in this:

America's Defence Meltdown

I believe it's about Page 131. Search the PDF for the word "Stuka", anyway.

 

[Greg Smith]

I thought I would go into more detail.
Most of the Allied bombing attacks were vengeance strikes under the guise of strategic aims. For a long time, we couldn't get troops onto the mainland, so bombing was really the only option for striking back.

After Barbarossa, Stalin was pushing for a second front, but the allies were not ready. The bombing raids were pretty much the only thing Churchill had to show Stalin that Britain was really comitted to attacking Germany. So it could be argued, that it served a political purpose too.

Even the Blitz did little but demoralise the British. It was very hard to successfully bomb a train station enough to put it out of action for any length of time.

It didn't even really do that. The 'Blitz Spirit' is not one of defeat, but of defiance.

 

[DFW]

There were some, numerous attacks, that were strategic. But many were just "kill some Germans" because strategic strikes would not be particularly effective, because of the bombers innacuracies.
Your example is a very important one as an interesting outlier from the main. And is very interesting just from a historical point of view. What's the town called?

Yes, if one studies the arguments and orders to, from, Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris (RAF Bomber Command) and the targeting differences from the U.S. 8th Air Force, the picture becomes clear.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Hardly, the Nazis could not cope with earthly Homo Sapiens who they considered to be "different", they would have completely freaked out had intergalatic "aliens" turned up.

It would depend on the specific year of contact, the German government
of 1932 would probably have welcomed the Vilani, because their influence
could have helped a lot to prevent the Nazis' rise to power: Additional op-
portunities to reduce the budget crisis and the unemployment and new po-
werful friends to end the isolation and alleviate the inferiority complex ...

Agreed, but GJD specified late 1930s, so suggesting that the Nazis were in power.

Of course, the Vilani might well have taken a much more robust approach towards enforcing control over earth and establishing the Vilani system than the 3I would have done.

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

The bombing of (most) german cities did have a strategic target, disrupting production and/or rail traffic. The low tech nature did not provide for precision but the main aim was military, not "kill them all"

Did they heck:
Explain the bombing of Luebeck? It was a medieval coastal town that was very pretty. And we burnt it to the ground, just because we could.

ETA:
I thought I would go into more detail.
Most of the Allied bombing attacks were vengeance strikes under the guise of strategic aims. For a long time, we couldn't get troops onto the mainland, so bombing was really the only option for striking back. These huge bombing raids did very little strategically. Did you know that in 1945 in Berlin, Production of small arms actually increased, and the U and S-bahn were operating daily, even while Berlin was under siege, and under daily air attack by fleets of bombers?
There were outliers. The Dambuster raids stopped production in those areas for a good two weeks or so, which was a smashing success.
These bombing raids were fantastic for morale. "Look at how many tonnes of bombs we're dropped on the damned Nazi's, aren't we doing good."
Even the Blitz did little but demoralise the British. It was very hard to successfully bomb a train station enough to put it out of action for any length of time.

That was all a little confused, but it gets my point across.

There have been many books written about this controversy, but just three points to think about, 1. German production may have increased, but think about how much more it would have increased by without the bombing, 2, huge quantities of German resources had to be diverted to resisting the bombing, making the life of the Red Army and Allied troop in the Middle East much easier, 3. By the spring of 1944 the Allies had established day and night air superiority over Germany, making German defeat inevitable.

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Hardly, the Nazis could not cope with earthly Homo Sapiens who they considered to be "different", they would have completely freaked out had intergalatic "aliens" turned up.

They were big into any sort of 'superhuman' mythos. So it'd depend how the approach was made.

Hopefully, it'd have avoided the worst consequences - contact with alien races is possibly the best solution to racism; in Terry Pratchett's words "black and white live in perfect harmony and gang up on green".

Assuming the 3I decides to make contact (and not just red zone the planet), somewhere else in Europe with plenty of cheap land (France?) and/or the USA (after a little research the scouts will work out that the US is already the biggest econonmy in the world) would make sense, close to economic centres and many markets.

Depends. The US is the largest single economy pre WWII but is not (yet) a par for the combined economies of western europe. As putting startown somewhere on Continental Europe makes sense. The relative importance of France/Germany/Russia/Britain will depend on if contact was made early enough to affect WWI as well.....

Of course, the big decider would be what the 3I and the various nations hope to get out of this. Certainly the economic dynamics would change a lot - access (albeit at a high cost) to imported fusion tech would render the arabian gulf and southern soviet republics merely 'nice-to-haves' instead of critical war aims, and removing oil/coal as a key need for Imperial Japan would notably change the dynamic in the pacific.

Yeah, there is lots of fun to be had with the "what ifs" and "exactly what year was contact made?".

However, in regard to Nazis and aliens, I think they would only respond positively to the arrival of a drop ship full of battle dressed Valkyries.

More likely, it would force everybody to rapidly reassess politic, economics etc

Not sure if Pratchett's quote would work out, the usual response of "natives" in Africa, Asia and the Americas to the arrival of Europeans was to divide (ok, the locals were usually pretty divided anyway), some tribes sought improved weapons and trade so they could defeat the others. Usually the first loserw were those who had been top dogs the year before.

Egil