(Hoprfully) final Orlanthi Question

[Rurik]

O.k., I've asked a coiuple of specific questions on Orlanthi culture and thank you to everyone who has answered, the responses have been very helpful.

But really what I probably should be asking is this:

In what ways are the Orlanthi in Second Age Ralios different than their Third age Heortling counterparts?

I am just looking for any tidbits that may be out there.

Thanks again in advance.

 

[richaje]

O.k., I've asked a coiuple of specific questions on Orlanthi culture and thank you to everyone who has answered, the responses have been very helpful.

But really what I probably should be asking is this:

In what ways are the Orlanthi in Second Age Ralios different than their Third age Heortling counterparts?

I am just looking for any tidbits that may be out there.

Thanks again in advance.

OK, the simplest answer is that the Orlanthi of Ralios have a different adult initiation rite from the Heortlings - Heort is not a central cultural figure in Ralios. They do not have the Unity Council tradition of the Heortlings and like most human cultures are likely to be more hostile to the Elder Races than the Heortlings. Dara Happa is not the traditional ritual enemy in Ralios - instead it is likely that the sorcerers of Zzabur occupy that role. The Orlanthi of Ralios have much more contact with Seshnegi culture than the Heortlings (which probably has an impact on their art and maybe on some aspects of the Lhankor Mhy cult in Ralios). Also the Orlanthi of Ralios have less regional political cohesion than the Heortlings. Finally, the Orlanthi of Ralios probably have a different list of minor gods and goddess than the Heortlings (no Kero Fin for example) and probably have some local subcults of Orlanth not known to the Heortlings (and vice versa).

How is that for a start?

Jeff

 

[Ian Cooper]

In what ways are the Orlanthi in Second Age Ralios different than their Third age Heortling counterparts?

I think there are two questions in one here. How are Ralian Orlanthi different to Heortlings and how are Second Age Orlanthi different to Third Age Orlanthi.

We do not really know the answer to the first. The Orlanthi have many similarities to the 'barbarian' peoples of northern Europe. While we categorize some of those peoples as Germans and some as Celts, the reality is that the line those distinctions suggest was much less clear in the real. However fan writers looking at the Heortlings and Ralians have used those categories. The Heortlings have been used German influences (including Saxons and Vikings) and people have borrowed Celtic influences for the Ralian Orlanthi (chariots, winged helmets, roundhouses).

It is not as clear cut as that, in the same way that it was less clear on the ground, but leaning on more Celtic influences might help you create some distinction between the two groups.

David Dunham seemed to use some of these ideas (http://www.poppyware.com/dunham/ralios/orlanthi.html) in his Ralian Orlanthi material. One thing that Greg has said since that was written though is that the religion practiced in Ralios is vanilla Orlanthi religion. So while there may be local heroes who have more influence there Lhankor Mhy is Lhankor Mhy. (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/HeroQuest-RPG/message/30834)


For the second question the answer must include the fact that Alakoring reforms the Orlanthi to reduce the power of priests in favor of kings. So the priesthood must have had more authority prior to that period. It is possible that candidates for chieftaincy or kingship had to come from the priesthood for example.

 

[telsor]

One of the big 2nd/3rd age differences is the lack of the Rex subcult.

Orlanthi life would be more oriented to the religious and the clans rings would operate more as a theocracy.

To say things would be more rigid has to be taken in a contextual manner when talking about Orlanthi, but there would be a larger tendancy to piety and doing things a certain way because Orlanth did them that way ( as opposed to 'what will work best' ).

 

[richaje]

One of the big 2nd/3rd age differences is the lack of the Rex subcult.

Orlanthi life would be more oriented to the religious and the clans rings would operate more as a theocracy.

To say things would be more rigid has to be taken in a contextual manner when talking about Orlanthi, but there would be a larger tendancy to piety and doing things a certain way because Orlanth did them that way ( as opposed to 'what will work best' ).

The cult of Orlanth Rex is certainly a difference between 2nd and 3rd age Orlanthi. It allowed "new kings" to exert their authority over the priests of the various Orlanth cults - which proved to be much more important in Kerofinela. The old Heortling kings of the First Age probably had that power as well, but after the Gbaji Wars the ancient unity of Heortland was torn apart by the Kings War. Eventually Hardros Hardslaughter reunified Kerofinela with the support of the priests. He shunned all forms of kingship and was guided by the Ring of Holy Orlanthland - a priests' council.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

Thanks everyone for the info.

Roundhouses. Cool. I just started detailing a Lankst Stead with Longhouses, but I can totally do roundhouses.

Since I am setting my stuff in the second age in Lankst for use with MRQ I am taking the Ralios PDF and expanding on the info in there and as such will probably take that as fact over other sources. For example there is one passage about a chieftain who has revived the chariot, an ancient vehicle. That would imply that chariots are not common among the clans at this time (perhaps this is the beginning of their rise).

David Dunham's material seems to cover Saug and Delia more in depth, while in GtSA:Ralios Robin Laws spends a lot more time on Lankst, so that should help avoid many discrepancies.

 

[richaje]

Thanks everyone for the info.

Roundhouses. Cool. I just started detailing a Lankst Stead with Longhouses, but I can totally do roundhouses.

Since I am setting my stuff in the second age in Lankst for use with MRQ I am taking the Ralios PDF and expanding on the info in there and as such will probably take that as fact over other sources. For example there is one passage about a chieftain who has revived the chariot, an ancient vehicle. That would imply that chariots are not common among the clans at this time (perhaps this is the beginning of their rise).

David Dunham's material seems to cover Saug and Delia more in depth, while in GtSA:Ralios Robin Laws spends a lot more time on Lankst, so that should help avoid many discrepancies.

Btw, David and I both view the Orlanthi of Vesmonstran as being more similar to the Heortlings than the Orlanthi of the East Wilds.

 

[telsor]

I'm reminded of a previous thread where it was mentioned that many Ralian Orlanthi were converted in the first age, often from hsunchen who lost those traditions.

2 things from this would be.

1. The basic Orlanthi teaching would be the same, after all, they learnt them from the same people. True, a couple of hundred years would allow for some drift in practices, but not *that* much.

2. I'd suspect that there is still a bond/affinity between the ex-hsunchen and their totem animals, even if it's just a cultural leaning rather than anything spiritual/magical ( ex-deer-folk might prohibit the hunting of deer for example...or especially value it.. ). Allied spirits might be 'non-standard' and come in the form of the ex-totem animal ( with appropriate tribal myth to justify why ).

 

[Alakoring]

Roundhouses. Cool. I just started detailing a Lankst Stead with Longhouses, but I can totally do roundhouses.

Lankst may well be different -- Ralios is really a pretty big place, and I'd expect a lot of cultural variation.

 

[Rurik]

Roundhouses. Cool. I just started detailing a Lankst Stead with Longhouses, but I can totally do roundhouses.

Lankst may well be different -- Ralios is really a pretty big place, and I'd expect a lot of cultural variation.

Well, I've already converted to a roundhouse, so I'm sticking with this shape for the moment.

I've updated the classic Celtic roundhouse a bit. Most information I found on the Celtic roundhouses is from earlier eras than the Germanic longhouses usually associated with the Orlanthi.

Roundhouses are perfect for the effect I was looking for - I wanted the culture to seem familiar but also different from the 'standard' third age Orlanthi. Easing them into the bigger differences between the Second Age and the Third in a sense.

 

[Alakoring]

Roundhouses are perfect for the effect I was looking for - I wanted the culture to seem familiar but also different from the 'standard' third age Orlanthi. Easing them into the bigger differences between the Second Age and the Third in a sense.

That's why I used them too...

 

[Rurik]

I'm bringing this old thread up just to comment on some the conclusions I have come to regarding Lanksti Orlanthi and Second Age Orlanthi compared to 3rd Age.

Regarding Chariots it seems clear from the G:tSA Ralios PDF that the Eastern Wilds clans do NOT have them yet. They are under the effects of the Walker's Curse. The Lanksti Roldoling Clan has chariots and is pushing the knowledge on the Eastern Clans, but they have really taken to them yet. So they are on the verge of adopting chariots, but haven't.

Nothing in the Second Age indicates the priesthood is particularly strong in Ralios - in fact there is a Lanksti Clan where priests are held in pretty low regard and not allowed to speak when spoken to. I think the power of the priesthood was more in the areas under EWF control. Part of the reason Alakoring weakened the priesthood was backlash against the priests leading the Orlanthi astray on the draconic path. I therefore think the powerful priesthood was more of a Heortling thing. Eastern clans are not covered in as much detail, so they could have powerful priests. Saug is anti EWF while Delelan clans (and tribes) are pro EWF, so perhaps this factors in. My take is Lanksti priests are not particularly powerful, Eastern priests are more so, and the Heortling to the east the most so.

Finally, I am going with roundhouses in Lankst (same as in the eastern wilds), though my roundhouses will probably differ from what David Dunham described in his Eastern Ralios games.

This is the result of what I could find on these subjects, so it could contradict some source I haven't found (and by all means point any conflicts out), and I figured I share it as I plan on starting my game in the Lankst region.

 

[Voriof]

I... got nothing.

All the good ideas are taken.

Jeff

 

[richaje]

Regarding Chariots it seems clear from the G:tSA Ralios PDF that the Eastern Wilds clans do NOT have them yet. They are under the effects of the Walker's Curse. The Lanksti Roldoling Clan has chariots and is pushing the knowledge on the Eastern Clans, but they have really taken to them yet. So they are on the verge of adopting chariots, but haven't.

Yeah, that seems to be Robin's take on it. I'm not sure if David concurs, maybe he will weigh in.

Nothing in the Second Age indicates the priesthood is particularly strong in Ralios - in fact there is a Lanksti Clan where priests are held in pretty low regard and not allowed to speak when spoken to. I think the power of the priesthood was more in the areas under EWF control. Part of the reason Alakoring weakened the priesthood was backlash against the priests leading the Orlanthi astray on the draconic path. I therefore think the powerful priesthood was more of a Heortling thing. Eastern clans are not covered in as much detail, so they could have powerful priests. Saug is anti EWF while Delelan clans (and tribes) are pro EWF, so perhaps this factors in. My take is Lanksti priests are not particularly powerful, Eastern priests are more so, and the Heortling to the east the most so.

Actually I am inclined to disagree with that. Alakoring develops the Rex subcult to make sure that the priests must submit to a tribal king. Greg and I have already written that Harmast himself trained the Ralian priests, so they are probably pretty important. Probably about as important as they are in traditional Heortling lands.

Something to keep in mind - the reason that the Orlanthi priests embraced Draconic mysticism so readily was because the Inhuman King gave them tremendous insight into Orlanthi mythology - remember the Inhuman King was present when Orlanth did his deeds. Orlanthi dragonspeakers like Vistikos and Orlmandan learned to talk to the dragons and asked the Inhuman King about their own (Orlanthi) mythology. The insight that the Inhuman King gave was profound, and showed the dragonspeakers how Orlanth achieved unity with his Cosmic Self. This new insight caught on like wildfire amongst the priests - once Orlmandan was brought onto the Ring of Holy Orlanthland you have the beginning of the EWF.

The Ralians received the EWF much later in the process, when the Dragon Pass priests had become far more draconic and far more alien - so the Dragon Way was not as popular in Ralios and once Alakoring made himself King of the Orlanthings or the Great Leader, he was able force the priests to acknowledge his authority or lose their connection to Orlanth.

The Book of Heortling History (which will be available very soon) has a lot more material on this.

Hope this helps a little -

Jeff

 

[Darran]

I view the 3rd age Heortlings as individually devotees while the 2nd age Ralian Orlanthi are more organised religion-wise.

 

[Voriof]

I view the 3rd age Heortlings as individually devotees while the 2nd age Ralian Orlanthi are more organised religion-wise.

Oooh! Nice distinction. Does account for the breaking of the priestly powerbase between 2nd and 3rd Age Orlanthi worship practices. Even in the First Age the religions seem more organized with Councils and the like.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

Regarding Chariots it seems clear from the G:tSA Ralios PDF that the Eastern Wilds clans do NOT have them yet. They are under the effects of the Walker's Curse. The Lanksti Roldoling Clan has chariots and is pushing the knowledge on the Eastern Clans, but they have really taken to them yet. So they are on the verge of adopting chariots, but haven't.

Yeah, that seems to be Robin's take on it. I'm not sure if David concurs, maybe he will weigh in.

I don't see Robin's take as necessarily contradicting Davids. In 908 the Orlanthi of the Eastern Wilds are affected by the walkers curse, but it specifically sets up their adoption of chariots in the near future - actually there is easily a campaign in there centered around the rise of chariots in the wilds.

Nothing in the Second Age indicates the priesthood is particularly strong in Ralios - in fact there is a Lanksti Clan where priests are held in pretty low regard and not allowed to speak when spoken to. I think the power of the priesthood was more in the areas under EWF control. Part of the reason Alakoring weakened the priesthood was backlash against the priests leading the Orlanthi astray on the draconic path. I therefore think the powerful priesthood was more of a Heortling thing. Eastern clans are not covered in as much detail, so they could have powerful priests. Saug is anti EWF while Delelan clans (and tribes) are pro EWF, so perhaps this factors in. My take is Lanksti priests are not particularly powerful, Eastern priests are more so, and the Heortling to the east the most so.

Actually I am inclined to disagree with that. Alakoring develops the Rex subcult to make sure that the priests must submit to a tribal king. Greg and I have already written that Harmast himself trained the Ralian priests, so they are probably pretty important. Probably about as important as they are in traditional Heortling lands.

Which part do you disagree with? While my bit on the relative power of priests between regions is just speculation on my part, it seems pretty clear in Robins Ralios PDF that the Lanksti Priests are not particularly powerful and do not really seem to be broadly organised on a level above the clan. They are generally anti-EWF and see the wrymfriend preists power over tribes as the main way the EWF controls the clans. That is the main reason there is strong opposition to tribal unity among the Lankst Clans. Maybe this changes between 908 and 1120, but at the time of G:tSA the clans are depicted as independant with the clan Chieftan being the strong leader of most clans (with one exception).

I have found precious little material on the tribes of Lankst in any age on the web or in any of the HeroWars/Quest books I have or my old RQ3 stuff. I don't really have easy access to any of the old magazine publications for reference.

I am also going to tend to favour G:tSA over other sources if there are contradictions because, well, I am working on MRQ in the Second Age, and that book is the definative book on the subject even if it ends up differing from more 'official' Gloranthan sources.

Something to keep in mind - the reason that the Orlanthi priests embraced Draconic mysticism so readily was because the Inhuman King gave them tremendous insight into Orlanthi mythology - remember the Inhuman King was present when Orlanth did his deeds. Orlanthi dragonspeakers like Vistikos and Orlmandan learned to talk to the dragons and asked the Inhuman King about their own (Orlanthi) mythology. The insight that the Inhuman King gave was profound, and showed the dragonspeakers how Orlanth achieved unity with his Cosmic Self. This new insight caught on like wildfire amongst the priests - once Orlmandan was brought onto the Ring of Holy Orlanthland you have the beginning of the EWF.

The Ralians received the EWF much later in the process, when the Dragon Pass priests had become far more draconic and far more alien - so the Dragon Way was not as popular in Ralios and once Alakoring made himself King of the Orlanthings or the Great Leader, he was able force the priests to acknowledge his authority or lose their connection to Orlanth.

Very True. Ormsalnd has it's own Inhuman King who was not at all interested in sharing with humans the way his Dragon Pass counterpart was.

The Book of Heortling History (which will be available very soon) has a lot more material on this.

Hope this helps a little -

Jeff

I am looking forward to that book (how soon is 'soon'?). And thanks for all the insight, it really is a big help.

 

[richaje]

Which part do you disagree with? While my bit on the relative power of priests between regions is just speculation on my part, it seems pretty clear in Robins Ralios PDF that the Lanksti Priests are not particularly powerful and do not really seem to be broadly organised on a level above the clan. They are generally anti-EWF and see the wrymfriend preists power over tribes as the main way the EWF controls the clans. That is the main reason there is strong opposition to tribal unity among the Lankst Clans. Maybe this changes between 908 and 1120, but at the time of G:tSA the clans are depicted as independant with the clan Chieftan being the strong leader of most clans (with one exception).

Let me preface my comments by saying that I am a huge Robin Laws fan. I've enjoyed everything he writes and I personally enjoy his company (I had a blast hanging out with Robin in Los Angeles some years ago). I also know that Robin was working under hellacious deadlines and the quality of his product is excellent.

That being said, I'm not sold on Robin's take on Lankst (as are several other key Gloranthan authors). Most significantly there are some pretty big chronological problems with it - Greg is pretty firm that Alakoring was already famous in Ralios as a foe against the dragonewts as early as 880 and had successfully led Ralios into rebellion against the EWF after 890. In 910, Alakoring - already known as the Great Leader - flies over the Nidan Mountains into Talastar. All these official dates and timelines (and much much more) will finally be published in the Heortling History Book (the only holdup are just getting a few final maps properly formatted for the book - then it is off to printer).

I am also going to tend to favour G:tSA over other sources if there are contradictions because, well, I am working on MRQ in the Second Age, and that book is the definative book on the subject even if it ends up differing from more 'official' Gloranthan sources.

OK, I do not view G:tSA as the definitive book on the Second Age - rather, I view Middle Sea Empire (which folk should definitely buy) and the forthcoming Book of Heortling History as containing the definitive background materials on the Second Age. Obviously YGWV.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

I am also going to tend to favour G:tSA over other sources if there are contradictions because, well, I am working on MRQ in the Second Age, and that book is the definitive book on the subject even if it ends up differing from more 'official' Gloranthan sources.

OK, I do not view G:tSA as the definitive book on the Second Age - rather, I view Middle Sea Empire (which folk should definitely buy) and the forthcoming Book of Heortling History as containing the definitive background materials on the Second Age. Obviously YGWV.

Jeff

When I said I consider G:tSA the "definitave" book it is only because I am working on my stuff for MRQ. I absolutely consider your work and the whole of the established Gloranthan community as more the correct version of things.

Like the Balazaar thing - clearly it does not line up with the real timeline but it has already worked it's way into other MRQ books. As such, in MRQ I am going to live with the inconsistency. If I were working on HQ stuff, or more generic stuff (say Pendragon Pass set in Second Age Ralios) I would without question take the Issaries material as gospel.

MRQ's take on Glorantha obviously has some differences from Issaries, and part of the reason I ask so many questions and value the input of you guys - I want my MRQ glorantha game to be as close to the 'real' Glorantha as possible. (and really appreciate the time some of the existing authorities on Glorantha spend on this board - I am sure there are probably some who view MRQ Glorantha as some kind of unacknowledged bastard child best ignored as though it didn't exist).

So I see MRQ's Glorantha as a kind of Parallel universe. Things like rune magic, Balazar, and I guess Alakoring are going to be different than in 'official' Glorantha. (very little of Ralios is actually under EWF control in 908 to rebel against in the G:tSA timeline). As I've said, I want my take to match the Issaries take as much as possible, but I don't think contradicting what Mongoose has published is productive if I am playing in their universe (most gamers hate it when you tell them their shiny new $35 world book is basically bogus).