High Guard and Quintuple Turrets

[atpollard]

Per High Guard (pg 53), “Weapons and screens also become available as prototypes one Tech Level before they are commonly available. They remain available for three Tech Levels before being outmoded or further improvement becomes too difficult to be cost–effective.” Also per High Guard at “TL+3”, the Tonnage is 60%, the Cost is 200% of he standard model. Pulse Lasers become available at TL 7, so at TL 10, a Pulse Laser with no other upgrades would require only 60% of the tonnage of a ‘Standard’ TL 7 Pulse Laser (and cost 2x as much).

My question is “What exactly does this mean in game terms?”

Would a TL 10 triple turret mounting 3 TL 10 Pulse Lasers only require 0.6 displacement tons?
What about the rule that all turrets (single, double, triple) are one dTon?

If a TL 7 Pulse Laser requires 1/3 of a 1 dTon turret (0.333 dT per Weapon), would a TL 10 Pulse Laser require 60% of 1/3 of a 1 dTon turret (0.20 dT per Weapon)? And if this is the case, then shouldn’t a 1 dTon turret be able to hold 5 x TL 10 Pulse Lasers and don’t we need Quadruple and Quintuple Turrets?

And if neither of these is the intent of the rules, then what does it mean that the TL 10 Pulse Laser is 60% of the tonnage of a TL 7 Pulse Laser?

[The same 0.2 dT weapon arguments apply to the TL 12 Beam Laser and the TL 9 Missile, and the 2 mount per turret weapons (like the Fusion Gun) being able to fit three weapons in a 1 dT turret.]

I assume that a 50 dT Bay Weapon would be only 30 dT and a 100 dT bay would be only 60 dT at TL+3.
Is that your interpretation as well? (which kind of screws with the whole ‘standard bay to allow quick refitting of new weapons' trope.)

What am I not seeing?

 

[DFW]

And if this is the case, then shouldn’t a 1 dTon turret be able to hold 5 x TL 10 Pulse Lasers and don’t we need Quadruple and Quintuple Turrets?

No, up until at least TL 15, Quadruple & Quituple turrets haven't been invented. I guess you could do it as a TL 16 prototype.

 

[atpollard]

And if this is the case, then shouldn’t a 1 dTon turret be able to hold 5 x TL 10 Pulse Lasers and don’t we need Quadruple and Quintuple Turrets?

No, up until at least TL 15, Quadruple & Quituple turrets haven't been invented. I guess you could do it as a TL 16 prototype.

"And if neither of these is the intent of the rules, then what does it mean that the TL 10 Pulse Laser is 60% of the tonnage of a TL 7 Pulse Laser?"

 

[Bense]

Generally you keep your weapons the same size - you just get to add extra things like Accurate, High Yield, and Long Range.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

I thought that the size of turrets was fixed, but the size of bay weapons could be reduced at higher TL. Not really a lot of point making turrets smaller, so just add the range etc bonuses

Egil

 

[DFW]

"And if neither of these is the intent of the rules, then what does it mean that the TL 10 Pulse Laser is 60% of the tonnage of a TL 7 Pulse Laser?"

It means just what it says. Notice, it doesn't state the turret changes size...

 

[AndrewW]

The tonnage reductions for weapons and screens in High Guard are used for screens and bay weapons not turrets. For turrets (and other weapons and screens) you can select the technology upgrades.

Actually, a 100 ton bay reduced to 60 tons ends up as 61 tons, and a 50 ton bay reduced to 30 tons ends up at 31 tons as you still add 1 ton of fire control for bay weapons.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

The tonnage reductions for weapons and screens in High Guard are used for screens and bay weapons not turrets. For turrets (and other weapons and screens) you can select the technology upgrades.

Actually, a 100 ton bay reduced to 60 tons ends up as 61 tons, and a 50 ton bay reduced to 30 tons ends up at 31 tons as you still add 1 ton of fire control for bay weapons.

Yeah, thats what I thought!

Egil

 

[atpollard]

The tonnage reductions for weapons and screens in High Guard are used for screens and bay weapons not turrets. For turrets (and other weapons and screens) you can select the technology upgrades.

While not the intent of the rule (per your explanation) what would your thoughts be on allowing the 2 mount per turret weapons (like the Fusion Gun) being reduced to a 3 mount per turret weapon at TL+3?

(Obviously anything goes in My Traveller Universe, I was thinking more along the lines of S&P.)

 

[Bense]

One of the Darrian ships in Alien Module 3 uses a reduced-size torpedo bay.

 

[AndrewW]

One of the Darrian ships in Alien Module 3 uses a reduced-size torpedo bay.

In this case that is a TL 15 Torpedo Bay designed by the Darrians. Though the reduced tonnage and accurate upgrades use the standard rules this would normally only be a TL 12 item. Without the TL upgrades this would be available at TL 12 (assuming the Darrians share).

 

[AndrewW]

The tonnage reductions for weapons and screens in High Guard are used for screens and bay weapons not turrets. For turrets (and other weapons and screens) you can select the technology upgrades.

While not the intent of the rule (per your explanation) what would your thoughts be on allowing the 2 mount per turret weapons (like the Fusion Gun) being reduced to a 3 mount per turret weapon at TL+3?

Small problem there, the fusion gun is a bay weapon only. The particle beam on the other hand is normally limited to 1 per turret.

I could see a reduction in the turret space taken up to squeeze 2 particle beams into one triple turret at TL +3. Would still use 1 ton of fire control of course.

 

[atpollard]

Small problem there, the fusion gun is a bay weapon only. The particle beam on the other hand is normally limited to 1 per turret.

OOPS, my bad. I was remembering Classic Traveller has 3 Lasers/Missile Launchers per turret, 2 Plasma/Fusion Weapons per Turret and 1 Particle Accelearator per Turret. I knew missiles, lasers and Particle Beams were the same in Mongoose Traveller, I (wrongly) assumed that Fusion weapons were the same as well.

 

[DFW]

I could see a reduction in the turret space taken up to squeeze 2 particle beams into one triple turret at TL +3. Would still use 1 ton of fire control of course.

Keeping in mind that each of those turrets would count as TWO particle beam turrets for the purpose of PP requirements - pg. 48 HG...

 

[AndrewW]

Small problem there, the fusion gun is a bay weapon only. The particle beam on the other hand is normally limited to 1 per turret.

OOPS, my bad. I was remembering Classic Traveller has 3 Lasers/Missile Launchers per turret, 2 Plasma/Fusion Weapons per Turret and 1 Particle Accelearator per Turret. I knew missiles, lasers and Particle Beams were the same in Mongoose Traveller, I (wrongly) assumed that Fusion weapons were the same as well.

Yeah, used to be allowed in turrets back then.

 

[AndrewW]

I could see a reduction in the turret space taken up to squeeze 2 particle beams into one triple turret at TL +3. Would still use 1 ton of fire control of course.

Keeping in mind that each of those turrets would count as TWO particle beam turrets for the purpose of PP requirements - pg. 48 HG...

Agreed, they would still draw the same amount of power each.

 

[locarno24]

Would a TL 10 triple turret mounting 3 TL 10 Pulse Lasers only require 0.6 displacement tons?
What about the rule that all turrets (single, double, triple) are one dTon?

If a TL 7 Pulse Laser requires 1/3 of a 1 dTon turret (0.333 dT per Weapon), would a TL 10 Pulse Laser require 60% of 1/3 of a 1 dTon turret (0.20 dT per Weapon)? And if this is the case, then shouldn’t a 1 dTon turret be able to hold 5 x TL 10 Pulse Lasers and don’t we need Quadruple and Quintuple Turrets?

And if neither of these is the intent of the rules, then what does it mean that the TL 10 Pulse Laser is 60% of the tonnage of a TL 7 Pulse Laser?

As I understand it, the 1 dTon associated with a non pop-up turret represents the fire control, not the weapons, and doesn't miniaturise. The size reduction is only relevant for figuring the equivalent number of tech upgrades you can fit.

It's not explicitely said, but I wouldn't argue if one of my players wanted to reduce the additional size associated with a pop-up turret, though.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

It is a flaw in the rules.

All of the ship designs from Mongoose use the TL to reduce the size for Bay weapons and shields, but not turrets. For turrets, they always used the upgrades.

Obviously, you can use a combination of size reduction and upgrades within the TL+3 range if you like, say 2 upgrades and 1 size reduction.

From a LOGICAL point of view, you should be able to add more weapons to a 1-ton turret at higher TLs; but they would have the effect of a lower TL weapon. I also agree that reducing the size of a bay weapon does seem to violate the "standard fitting" idea in the design process.

I have found that the upgrades are worth more than the size reduction at higher Tech Levels, but I have only run a few combats, so my experience is limited.

 

[phavoc]

If you look at the illustration of the Azhanti High Lightning from the Colin's Inspriational Art thread, you'll see the ship with triple 'turrets' deployed port and starboard - 6 per side.

But these don't fit in with the ship design. By the size of them they need to be bay weapons, probably in the 100-ton range. You can see a pic of the original artwork for the ship on Drivethru RPG, and even download it for free.

Personally I think you should be able to mount multiple weapons in 'bay' turret. As TL increases, the size of the weapon decreases, with perhaps more effecient energy usage, which allows you to deploy more weapons, or maybe more powerful weapons. I'm not sure drawing a similar parallel to naval guns today would make sense. Turret sizes are based upon the number of weapons you want to mount, how much protection you wish to give them, and the size of your round. Everything else is pretty much below the turret (magazine, feed mechanisms, etc).

So an energy turret would be more about the equipment required to generate the energy beam and keep it focused out to its maximum range. Then it just becomes an issue of how many weapons you might want to put in a single turret before it becomes too critical if its taken out with a hit.

Sounds like a High Guard 2.0 topic.

 

[locarno24]

Bear in mind that once you're dealing with guns which have a significant chunk of volume within the hull, you are talking about barbettes and bays, not turrets. A turret is a load of light (by warship standards) weapons mounted externally to the hull - sort of like a pair of .50 cals on a pintle-mount on the side of a battleship.

I don't really see a problem with the idea of a quad turret; of course, following the logic of the ship building rules, it'd be expensive:

The first mount in a turret is TL7 and requires 0.2 MCr.
Fitting in a second* requires TL8 and costs a further 0.3 MCr.
A third needs TL9 and costs a futher 0.5 MCr.

Following that logic, you're going to be looking at TL10 and something like a total cost of 1.8 MCr for a quad mount.



In terms of massed regular mounts in a weapons bay, you could take your lead from a missile bay - a 50 dTon bay clearly is equivalent to 6 conventional mountings, so could fit six missiles or lasers, or two turret-scale particle beams. Given that that's the equivalent of 4.5 MCr worth of hardware in a 12 MCr bay, a clean 'Battery' bay mounting will be something like 8 MCr.



* Which is your miniaturizing, I guess