HG 1e Gunnery Crew Turrets p. 67

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

I am not following the HG PDF 1e turret gunner rule, the relationship with the barrage rules, and the Capital Ship Design Example.

HG PDF 1e Gunnery Section p. 67

"...turret weapons should have a crew of at least 1 per barrage. (Note this places a maximum limit on the number of barrages a ship can shoot, which could limit its performance against small craft.)"

HG PDF 1e Expanded Space Combat p. 73

"At minimum, a barrage must include ten weapons of the same time or all the weapons on the ship of that type if fewer are mounted.

Configuration: A capital ship cannot always bring all its weapons to bear at all times. Each configuration of capital ship lists a percentage value; this is the percentage of turrets or bays that can be aimed at a single target. The size of a barrage aimed at that target is therefore capped by this percentage."

HG PDF 1e Capital Ship Design Example p. 72

"She decides to provide 40 gunners for the particle beam turrets (1 per 2 turrets), 120 for the beam laser turrets (1 per 2 turrets), 25 for the missile turrets (1 per 4 turrets) and 20 gunners for the sandcaster turrets (1 per 10 turrets)."

Have I gathered all the rules I need to figure out the turret crews?

Would someone, if you have time, please explain how the process works?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Don't forget:

Barrage attacks on flights suffer a –4 DM, representing the difficulty of hitting a distributed set of targets. Barrage damage is assumed to inflict a number of hits equal to the barrage total. Flights lose a number of craft whose combined Hull and Structure total is equal to the barrage total; any excess barrage damage is applied as normal hits. The flight will lose a maximum number a craft based on the lower of the number of mounts firing or the average gunnery crew for that weapon system. Ship designers are encouraged to provide sufficient gunners for turret weapons to maximise their anti–fighter defences.

So if a barrage of 100 turrets with 1 gunner per 5 turrets hits a flight of fighters, at most 20 fighters can be killed. This is not a practical problem against well-built fighters.


Barrages are made and rearranged as needed in combat, not at the design stage.

Note that Fire Control software can only affect a few attacks per round, so you do not want to make too many attacks.

You can only attack a single target with some percent of your weapons, but all weapons can attack.

Hence you may want to group all your weapons in two barrages, attacking two separate targets every round, to maximise the DM from Fire Control software.

So, if I recall correctly, you probably do not need very many gunners.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

Don't forget:

Barrage attacks on flights suffer a –4 DM, representing the difficulty of hitting a distributed set of targets. Barrage damage is assumed to inflict a number of hits equal to the barrage total. Flights lose a number of craft whose combined Hull and Structure total is equal to the barrage total; any excess barrage damage is applied as normal hits. The flight will lose a maximum number a craft based on the lower of the number of mounts firing or the average gunnery crew for that weapon system. Ship designers are encouraged to provide sufficient gunners for turret weapons to maximise their anti–fighter defences.

So if a barrage of 100 turrets with 1 gunner per 5 turrets hits a flight of fighters, at most 20 fighters can be killed. This is not a practical problem against well-built fighters.


Barrages are made and rearranged as needed in combat, not at the design stage.

Note that Fire Control software can only affect a few attacks per round, so you do not want to make too many attacks.

You can only attack a single target with some percent of your weapons, but all weapons can attack.

Hence you may want to group all your weapons in two barrages, attacking two separate targets every round, to maximise the DM from Fire Control software.

So, if I recall correctly, you probably do not need very many gunners.

I still have very little idea how turret gunners are determined the best I can figure is that they are based on a barrage which consists of ten turrets with the same type of weapon or if there are fewer than 10 all the same type weapons that can bear on a target.

CT LBB 5 HG 2e p. 29
A battery may be as few as one turret, or as many as ten, but all batteries of the same type weapon must have the same weapon code (USP factor). Spinal mounts if the ship has one is a single battery. Each bay weapon is automatically a battery.

CT LBB 5 HG 23 p. 33
A ship should have a Chief Gunnery Officer
At least on Petty Officer for each type of weapon aboard.
Spinal Mounts 1 gun crew member per 100 tons of weapon
Bays should have two crew per bay
Turret weapons should have a crew of at least one per battery.
Screens should have 4 crew members per screen

In CT HG 2e the 80 particle beam turrets could have between 8 and 80 gunners. In CT LBB 5 HG 2e Julia's choice of 1 gunner per two turrets is, at least I think so, a battery for crew manning. Two turrets per battery equals 80 / 2 = 40 batteries and Julia assigned 1 gunner to each battery.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that the MgT Gunnery Section Turret crew means the same thing.

Next, in CT LBB 5 HG 2e the Chief Gunnery Officer and the at least one Petty Officer for each type of weapon are not included in the crew count or the 10% officers and 30% petty officers ratio.

Is HgT HG 1e Gunnery section rule of "The ship should have a chief gunnery officer and at least 1 petty officer for each type of weapon aboard." included in the Total Crew count of added separately?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A barrage is at least 10 weapons, or as much as all of them. Given the Fire Control software situation you do not want to fire too many barrages.

If you have 1 gunner per turret you are safe.

 

[Condottiere]

You need half a tonne for the gunner in the turret.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello again AnotherDilbert,

A barrage is at least 10 weapons, or as much as all of them. Given the Fire Control software situation you do not want to fire too many barrages.

From HG 1e PDF p. 74

At minimum, a barrage must include ten weapons of the same type or all the weapons on the ship of that type if fewer are mounted.

My understanding from the text I bolded that nine triple pulse laser turrets would qualify as a barrage.

Please note that the text from p. 74 actually reads:

"At minimum, a barrage must include ten weapons of the same time or all the weapons on the ship of that type if fewer are mounted." I changed time to type otherwise I did a copy and paste from the source PDF.

If you have 1 gunner per turret you are safe.

The Capital Ship Design example has the following turret crew manning levels:

80 Particle Beam Turrets have one gunner for every 2 turrets for a total of 40.
240 Triple Beam Turrets have one gunner for every 2 turrets for a total of 120.
100 Triple Missile Turrets have 1 gunner for every 4 turrets for a total of 25.
200 Triple Sandcaster Turrets have 1 gunner for every 10 turrets for a total of 20.

The triple sandcaster turret gunner allocation is the only one that exactly matches ten weapons of the same type per barrage and at least one gunner per barrage.

The other three turret weapon types exceed the at least one gunner per barrage, but as described they do not meet the requirements of being a barrage which requires groups of ten of the same type of weapon.

I'm lousy with the CT LBB 5 HG 2e turret gunner rules, but at least I have some idea how they are calculated. I'm still in the dark for HgT HG 1e.

 

[snrdg121408]

Howdy Condottiere,

You need half a tonne for the gunner in the turret.

I'm sorry to say that I can not find the page indicating that a gunner requires 0.5 tonnes in a turret above the 1 tonne for fire control. My understanding based on CT, MT, TNE FF&S, and GURPS Vehicles associated with GURPS Traveller the one tonne of fire includes the gunner's couch.

I would greatly appreciate, if you have the time, getting the title of the rule book and page number about the gunner requiring 0.5 tonnes of space in the turret please.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

At its simplest, the barrage attack involves taking all attacks of the same type on the same target as a single attack.

At minimum, a barrage must include ten weapons of the same time type or all the weapons on the ship of that type if fewer are mounted.

No maximum size. Barrages are only limited by the bearing percent on p62.

How big barrages you want to fire depends on what you are shooting at. 1 gunner per 4 turrets gives you total flexibility, since 10 weapons is at least 4 triple turrets and turrets can only fire once.

 

[Condottiere]

It is included in the turret tonnage, just that sometimes space for the gunner is overlooked in there.

 

[snrdg121408]

Late morning PDT AnotherDilbert,

At its simplest, the barrage attack involves taking all attacks of the same type on the same target as a single attack.

I have no issues with the rule described above

At minimum, a barrage must include ten weapons of the same time type or all the weapons on the ship of that type if fewer are mounted.

No maximum size. Barrages are only limited by the bearing percent on p62.

Again the exact wording from HG 1e p. 74 is: "At minimum, a barrage must include ten weapons of the same time or all the weapons on the ship of that type if fewer are mounted."

According to HG 1e p. 73: "At its simplest, the barrage attack involves taking all attacks of the same type on the same target as a single attack.

Based on p. 73 I believe the wording on p. 74 should be: "At minimum, a barrage must include ten weapons of the same type or all the weapons on the ship of that type if fewer are mounted." versus "same time".

On p. 73 the same type I take to mean all of say the beam laser turrets that can legally fire on the target. In my opinion, even without the change of time to type, the rule on p. 74 means that a barrage is normally composed of 10 beam laser turrets, the exception is when there are fewer than ten beam laser turrets that can fire ion the same target.

From p. 72 "Configuration: A capital ship cannot always bring all its weapons to bear at all times. Each configuration of capital ship lists a percentage value; this is the percentage of turrets or bays that can be aimed at a single target. The size of a barrage aimed at that target is therefore capped by this percentage."

The HG 1e design example is a 75,000 ton coned shaped hull which per the Configuration Table on p. 62 can focus 70% of its turret and bay weapons on a target. Of the 80 beam weapon turrets, in theory, the maximum number of turrets that can focus on a target is (80 x .7) 56 out of 80.

A match sparks to life which lights a candle as possible understanding pops into my mind:

I think I see why I'm failing to grasp the barrage concept. My understanding is influenced by CT in that 10 single mount beam lasers (10 beam lasers) turrets, 10 double mount beam lasers (20 beam lasers) turrets, and 10 triple beam lasers (30 beam lasers) turrets are a battery which I have translated to be the same as a MgT HG barrage.

If I am now on the right track under MgT HG 1e barrage rules: 10 single mount beam laser turrets is a barrage; 5 double mount beam laser turrets is a barrage, and 4 triple beam laser turrets is a barrage.

A ship capable of focusing 3 triple beam turrets on a target would considered to be a barrage even though there are not 10 identical weapons since they are all firing on the same target.

How big barrages you want to fire depends on what you are shooting at. 1 gunner per 4 turrets gives you total flexibility, since 10 weapons is at least 4 triple turrets and turrets can only fire once.

The turret crew requirement of 1 per barrage or 10 weapons is now starting to come into focus.

Thank you for you patience and help I may get the hang of the rules in time to become confused again with the publication of HG 2e.

 

[snrdg121408]

Early afternoon PDT Condottiere,

It is included in the turret tonnage, just that sometimes space for the gunner is overlooked in there.

Thank you for the clarification and I'll stop worrying about having overlooked another rule. There are a number of items that are subsumed into components in Traveller design systems.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If I am now on the right track under MgT HG 1e barrage rules: 10 single mount beam laser turrets is a barrage; 5 double mount beam laser turrets is a barrage, and 4 triple beam laser turrets is a barrage.

A ship capable of focusing 3 triple beam turrets on a target would considered to be a barrage even though there are not 10 identical weapons since they are all firing on the same target.

Yes, and a barrage can be any size.

Example: A big ship mounts 200 triple beam laser turrets and has configuration Sphere, so 70% of the weapons can fire at a single enemy. We can fire two (or more) barrages, e.g. 140 turrets in a barrage on Bogey A and the remaining 60 turrets in another barrage on Bogey B. The next round we continue to fire a 140 turret barrage at Bogey A, but split the rest in two barrages of 30 turrets each on Bogey B and Bogey C.

 

[snrdg121408]

Howdy again AnotherDilbert,

If I am now on the right track under MgT HG 1e barrage rules: 10 single mount beam laser turrets is a barrage; 5 double mount beam laser turrets is a barrage, and 4 triple beam laser turrets is a barrage.

A ship capable of focusing 3 triple beam turrets on a target would considered to be a barrage even though there are not 10 identical weapons since they are all firing on the same target.

Yes, and a barrage can be any size.

Thank you for confirming I'm now on the right track and my candle has now been upgraded to a small light bulb. ;-)

Example: A big ship mounts 200 triple beam laser turrets and has configuration Sphere, so 70% of the weapons can fire at a single enemy. We can fire two (or more) barrages, e.g. 140 turrets in a barrage on Bogey A and the remaining 60 turrets in another barrage on Bogey B. The next round we continue to fire a 140 turret barrage at Bogey A, but split the rest in two barrages of 30 turrets each on Bogey B and Bogey C.

I'm following the example above and it is making sense.

Thank you again for the help.