Hermes overpowered?

[prelude_to_war]

What does everyone think of the Hermes, especially when used in quantity...are they too good for their PL? Broken or just right? Some notes from another thread below to get us started.

If you think the Hermes is bad --- just wait until you get a load of the Pak's Sunhawk.

The closest analogy between the most common flash-loaded Hermes and anything is the Sho'Kov:

The Sho'Kov, of course, is not fielded in large numbers for a good reason.

Perhaps the problem never was the Saggitarius, or the Hermes --- it was/is the Flash and Heavy missiles themselves? Interesting question.

..........Hermes.....Sho'Kov
Hull:........4..............4
Damage:.10...........17...(effective: Dodge factored in here.)
Crew.......12...........14...(effective: Dodge factored in here.)
Other:..Interceptor......
Jump?:....Yes..........No
Missile:....2 AD......1 AD
Style:.DD, Slow-L..Single Damage
Style:.......AP.........SAP
Precise?:..Yes.........Yes
Fighter?:...Yes.........No
Range?:....30...........20

The Hermes appears notably superior, but only when loaded with Flash. Try normal missiles and you get:

..........Hermes.....Sho'Kov
Hull:........4..............4
Damage:.10...........17...(effective: Dodge factored in here.)
Crew.......12...........14...(effective: Dodge factored in here.)
Other:..Interceptor......
Jump?:....Yes..........No
Missile:....2 AD......1 AD
Style:.....Slow-L..Single Damage
Style:......SAP.........SAP
Precise?:..Yes.........Yes
Fighter?:...Yes.........No
Range?:....30...........20

The Hermes here is slightly superior, but's it's really pretty close. I can only tell because they are SO close to one another. Note I put some high value in the Interceptor and the Thunderbolt.

 

[timeslip]

The problem might be that the rules should restrict the amount of a ship type used or you may only select a cetain PL up or below from the current one played.
George 8)

 

[MongooseMatt]

I don't believe they are overpowered - however, I do think they are much under rated.

I like 'em!

 

[Target]

Don't think they can be compared to a Sag in overpowerness ( is that a word ), there is only 1 arc of missles where the Sag superiority is it has missles in every direction & could fire every round with some manuevring. No other bombardment ships had that option. I'd say they are pretty damn good but then i've seen huge numbers fielded.

 

[H]

They are "annoying" in that they have beatter range then ships several priorities above, but they are amazingly fragile. I personally think the missile varients are more of a problem than the ship

 

[prelude_to_war]

I personally think the missile varients are more of a problem than the ship

Indeed, but when this ship has access to those varients while other ships at this level (Sho'Kov, etc.) do not, does the Hermes have enough weaknesses (especially when fielded in large numbers) to be balanced? Davesaint's fleet had 10 of them in the 5pt battle round and took out a Vorlon Transport in one CAF'd volley. Scary.

 

[H]

I personally think the missile varients are more of a problem than the ship

Indeed, but when this ship has access to those varients while other ships at this level (Sho'Kov, etc.) do not, does the Hermes have enough weaknesses (especially when fielded in large numbers) to be balanced? Davesaint's fleet had 10 of them in the 5pt battle round and took out a Vorlon Transport in one CAF'd volley. Scary.

at the end of the day, if you change it, a thousand EA voices will cry out at once... then beat you to death.

 

[prelude_to_war]

at the end of the day, if you change it, a thousand EA voices will cry out at once... then beat you to death.

Oh I know. Actually I've not had any issues with the Hermes in its current state. It actually may just be a symptom of a larger problem (PL and the way points break down) as Ripple has suggested.

However with a campaign coming up I thought I'd see what the general opinions were on the matter...

 

[thehod]

Most people tend to waste a Hermes pretty fast as soon as it tries anything against other ships. Its pretty fragile but it makes up for the missle racks and the fighter base.

In most games I have seen the Hermes take a shoot and die within the next 2 turns so the EA player has fewer Init Sinks. The interceptor keeps it relatively safe from most non beam using ships but then they quickly get vaped by most ships that just dedicate a single beam AD if its DD or TD.

 

[CZuschlag]

I think the Flash missile is off. When no one fields regular missile and everyone fields Flash instead, you know the two variants aren't similar, they're a joke.

The Hermes I have no problem with whatsoever. It's the Hermes + Flash that is of some concern. But how much? I don't know yet.

The whole point of the Flash is to get to DD. Fair enough. However, at its range and only giving up SAP -> AP (which is often rectified with CAF) is clearly not enough of a give.

You could try to achieve balance by giving up more range, or by giving up AP as well. However, such a change is global, and would probably require a substantial rebalance to many ships, especially the Apollo, which I'm not prepared to do. I would suggest then that the Hermes become similar to the Hyperion Missile:

Missile Rack: Range 30, Arc F, AD 2, Precise, Slow-Loading, Super AP*

*Missile Variants: The Hermes Transport may not use the missile variants detailed on page 48. Earth variant missile production factilities often concentrated on sustaining production for the larger, more sustainable ships than the often-killed Hermes; it often took significant haggling to get these rarer weapons. A Hermes may spend 1 experience point to gain access to variant missiles for one campaign battle. At the end of the battle, the ship is again restricted to the standard missile.

Tune as you see fit: this is a first suggestion. The access in campaigns is to keep the EA whining to a reasonable minimum.

Yes, this is a cop-out, I admit it. The right thing to do is to fix flash. I just can't get my arms around that problem yet, though. Perhaps percentage restrictions on variant missiles? That's really dubious -- and the math could get all Star-Fleet-Battles-y on us, and I think no one wants that.

 

[Target]

Reduce the range is the obvious one, Heavies are 15", make Flash 20 or 25". 25 would probably suffice.

 

[Davesaint]

And now a reply from the offender himself. :wink:

The problem with the hermes is really due to several factors

1. With the Change to the PL breakdown in Armageddon, there is no reason not to "buy down" in PL level to get more ships. For a battle point, you get 1 raid, 1 skirmish, and 2 patrol. In, SFOS the breakdown was 1 raid, 1 skirmish, and 1 patrol IIRC. This allows you to field more ships and limit the varriability of the dice rolling.

2. Varrient missles - The problem with the varrients is that, in case of the flash missle, you keep the precise. If the Flash missle was AP, DD and lost it's precise, it would not be nearly as bad

3. The fighter. Because you can swap T-Bolts for Starfuries freely, they get a huge increase in firepower for no cost.

As far as hermes dying quickly, they don't if you are smart. Besides, if I can trade a raid level hull for a hermes, I'm cool with that.


Dave

 

[CZuschlag]

5" still isn't enough of a give. It's 20 minimum --- or even less. However, again, now I'm messing around with the Apollo and Saggitarius a lot, and, to some degree, the Marathon, Olympus, and Oracle. I want to be careful about those kinds of choices.

Heavies at 15 might be worth a looksee as well. 15 is pretty decent range, last I checked. I'm not sure that the Hermes aren't even worse with Heavy missiles. They might be.

Maybe the Standard missile just needs to be better, too. Not much, mind you.

EDIT: Davesaint, you are an unconscious genius. It's the Precise that is the extra and tricky give. THAT will make people hem and haw about taking Flash or not. Then you can probably go back to 30 for all I'd care. This idea should seriously be explored. I can't prove that that's fair at all --- but it just feels right.

Of course, that feel means absolutely nothing whatsoever. We'd still have to fix all the other Missile-based ships to give them a boost to counter these otherwise balanced (or close) ships' loss. Sag might get s little more meat to it, the Apollo would probably get more dice, as would the Marathon and the like.

 

[H]

One thing is, why do the other races not have missile varients. The Narn have e-mine varients, the ionic possibly being the best of the bunch (shipbreakers have too short a range), but other missile ships just get their standard missile, why has no other race thought, hang on, look at that fancy flash missile, we'll have something like that etc.

I have to say in terms of breakeability, I has a Takata wipe out 4 Hermes over a few rounds, with no damage in return. An interceptor race has little problem against them, unless they take multiwarhead, but then the damage drops anyway!

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

While not necessarily in favour of nerfing Flash missiles, it's certainly the Precise and DD that makes it attractive to EA players.

 

[marsa10]

I have to say in terms of breakeability, I has a Takata wipe out 4 Hermes over a few rounds, with no damage in return. An interceptor race has little problem against them, unless they take multiwarhead, but then the damage drops anyway!

Hiffano, I like my Takata's as much as the next man but surely a war level ship should be able to wipe out four patrol level in a few rounds.

I think power comparions like prelude_to_wars against other races missile ships are the way forward.
Keep the missile varients I like them they are very EA like the laser/pulse arrays (and I don't really play EA).

One thought try renaming the Hermes weapon to Short ranged missile rack and change the range to maximum 20' (or more/less if you feel its required) for all missiles.
Doesnt mess with the balance of the other ships and helps lower its effectiveness a little.

 

[H]

yes it should, but then the Takata is not really the best warship around
thing is, 4 hermes against say a Bin Tak which is a top end warship, they could quuite easily crit it out of the game before it can kill them.

but yes, not a bad idea, after all, this tiny ship somehow packs all these missiles, a fighter, and has an interceptor grid to boot!
or give it a payload limit or something?

 

[Tankdriver]

I think the real problem is the way initiative works. For guys like me who favor masses of smaller ships, the initiative system is great. Even if I lose, I will have enough ships left to control the action. Especially if I move my smaller ships first.

A simple shift to make the rules so that players with more ships have to move them first when they lose initiative would be better. Say if you have double the number of ships as your opponent, then you move two for every one he moves. Of course, the Minbari would love that.

 

[marsa10]

A simple shift to make the rules so that players with more ships have to move them first when they lose initiative would be better. Say if you have double the number of ships as your opponent, then you move two for every one he moves. Of course, the Minbari would love that.

Arrrrggggh. My Drazi, My poor defenceless Drazi. We only have our boresight arc please don't make it worse.

yes it should, but then the Takata is not really the best warship around

It's about as good as you get in Brakiri terms

 

[H]

however if rumour be true, the Corumi (however it's spelt) is being released ;-)