Grappling and Doing Weapons Damage with an AutoFire Pistol (Magrail Pistol)

[Yenaldlooshi]

If I successfully grapple a character and I am armed with a Magrail Pistol, and I wish to "Inflict damage using a pistol or small bladesized weapon"(Core78), can my damage be at the autofire setting and thus I would get 3D+3 damage done 4 times due to the Auto 4 trait of the weapon (CSC143)?

Is there anything in the rules that negates that idea or supports it? If neither, does the forum think that should be allowed or not allowed and if so, why?

 

[MonsterX]

Some autofire weapons have a really high ROF: for pistols it is really the magazine size that's the constraint. Auto 4 suggests that basically if you touch the trigger, all the bullets shoot out. It's not out of the question you could empty an entire magazine in less than a second. With 20 in the magazine, you'd probably have to hold it steady on target for only a fraction of a second. The challenge would be to NOT use up your full mag in case you need to shoot somebody else later.

If you did that to someone you're grappling with - the outcome would be very negative for that person.

 

[swordtart]

Hmm, I'd allow the burst variant (i.e. add the auto number to the damage)*, but since full auto with the Magrail Pistol would require 4 attack rolls, I am not convinced you can get 4 attacks worth of damage off the back of a single grapple roll.

*Personally I find that way of calculating the extra damage to be a bit pathetic and not worth the ammunition. I have house ruled that you get +1 per full dice of damage the weapon does rather than just 1 point of damage for each point of Auto. So under my ruling the MagRail would be doing 3d6+15 (which is far more respectable) with a burst rather than 3d+7.

 

[ResslynHalvik]

I've grubbed around in the rule books and some real world stats for this this morning. I thought it might be useful to look at a real world weapon and how that maps on to the rules.

We don't have magrail pistols yet, so I looked at the tl6 assault pistol, which the rules say is Auto 2. Fully auto fire for Auto 2 makes two attacks in a round, firing 3 X 2 = 6 rounds. 6 rounds in a combat round is one round per second, or 60 rounds per minute. If we suppose that when grappling the fire opportunity is only one third of the round, or 2 seconds, that would require a rate of fire of 180 round per minute to make the full track.

For a real world equivalent for TL6 weapon I looked at the WW1 Steyr 1912 machine pistol. This had a rate of fire of 800 rpm. That is substantially higher than even the 180rpm required, so I think it's realistic to do a full auto attack at the end of a successful grapple.

The Magrail pistol is Auto 4, so would be firing 12 rounds in a full auto attack, which would be 360 rpm if it has to happen in 2 seconds. Seems reasonable.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The Glock 18 is also fully automatic (and heavily restricted) and can fire 1,200 rounds a minute, so 20 rounds a second or 120 rounds a combat turn.

The standard magazine for it is 19 rounds, but it can use extended 33 round magazines or even a 100 round drum. It can dump all those in less than six seconds.

 

[ResslynHalvik]

Yeah, I wanted to compare a modern automatic pistol with the rules, but I couldn't find anything in the CRB or CSC that was TL 7/8 and Auto 3. (The FC just makes me feel grubby)

 

[swordtart]

You need to be careful of RPM as a measure in isolation of other factors. Full auto pistols can certainly generate high rates of fire (the difficulty is often slowing them down). That doesn't mean if you squirt off an entire magazine that more than a few of them will be going in the direction you started pointing.

Add to that the difficulty of keeping the gun on target when grappling with someone. I have tried to achieve a kill with a dagger in a grapple and it wasn't easy and took a few attempts before I locked my opponent up sufficiently to be able to bring the dagger within reach of a workable target.

But that said Magrails and Gauss Pistols may be an exception as they don't really suffer from recoil.

It is self-balancing, as long as you don't mind the baddies doing it to you, fill yer boots

 

[swordtart]

Yeah, I wanted to compare a modern automatic pistol with the rules, but I couldn't find anything in the CRB or CSC that was TL 7/8 and Auto 3. (The FC just makes me feel grubby)

RL SMG cyclic rates are about the same as controllable pistols and are very TL 7

 

[ResslynHalvik]

I did think about that (spray and pray) but then figured that if this is at the end of a grapple and you haven't taken the option to disengage or throw then you're pretty much on top of the guy and probably have the pointy end held against his body

 

[swordtart]

I did think about that but then figured that if this is at the end of a grapple and you haven't taken the option to disengage or throw then you're pretty much on top of the guy and probably have the pointy end held against his body

It's all very John Wick - not that that is necessarily a bad thing

It occurs to me that this is more likely a reaction to a grappling attempt rather than an attempt to grapple when armed with a gun. In that case maybe getting the gun on target is effectively avoiding the grapple.

It still sits a little wrong that the guy with unarmed combat will be better with his gun when scrambling around tangled up with another person than aiming at the target as the gun attack is an auto hit, whereas the point blank shot will need 4 successful attack rolls.

 

[MonsterX]

There is the issue that the bullets will be all headed down more or less the same pathway if you hold steady - the first one probably cleared out any vitals already, so the rest will more or less just plow through. Painful just to think about, but it would probably cause less total damage than if you placed four separate shots, which would end up in different locations most likely, each with a chance to hit a different organ or joint or muscle. It kind of depends. Four shots to through someones hand isn't going to do that much more that the first, but four through one side of the torso and eventually out the other would be very discouraging for the victim.

 

[ResslynHalvik]

Esp if they are still trying to grapple back, so moving.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Esp if they are still trying to grapple back, so moving.

If you win the grapple on your turn, you got them. Their chance that turn to "grapple back" is done. They get a another chance next turn.

It is worth mentioning that an attacker trying a grapple/shoot attack per the rules puts themself at risk that if they lose the opposed grapple roll, they have no given their opponent a free grapple outside of their own turn. So best know what you are doing if you try this. Have a high skill+DM and whatnot.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Just remember, using a gun while grappling doesn't require aiming, so the melee skill makes more sense than using the gun combat skill, as long as you aren't untrained in either one.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

It's all very John Wick - not that that is necessarily a bad thing

It occurs to me that this is more likely a reaction to a grappling attempt rather than an attempt to grapple when armed with a gun. In that case maybe getting the gun on target is effectively avoiding the grapple.

It still sits a little wrong that the guy with unarmed combat will be better with his gun when scrambling around tangled up with another person than aiming at the target as the gun attack is an auto hit, whereas the point blank shot will need 4 successful attack rolls.

John Wick.... yaaaaassss... like it.

Actually, I am thinking of a character who is an unarmed specialist using a gun to deal the damage.

I see it as perfectly making sense that the guy with Unarmed combat should be better with his gun when scrambling because scrambling is what unarmed combat is all about, else throw out the option in the grapple rules that you can do such damage.
As for it being an "auto hit" it is nothing of the sort. Before you get that "auto hit", you have to succeed in the opposed Unarmed skill check. IF YOU FAIL THAT not only will you do zero damage, but at that point your opponent has grappled you and can do all the same nastynesses that are listed as grapple actions including the same move with a pistol you were going to do. It actually comes with extra risk. But yes, once this is won, then the damage is at that point automatic in the sense that you are not going to require yet more attack rolls after you have succeeded with your melee attack roll.

 

[ResslynHalvik]

If you win the grapple on your turn, you got them. Their chance that turn to "grapple back" is done. They get a another chance next turn.

It is worth mentioning that an attacker trying a grapple/shoot attack per the rules puts themself at risk that if they lose the opposed grapple roll, they have no given their opponent a free grapple outside of their own turn. So best know what you are doing if you try this. Have a high skill+DM and whatnot.

Yes, yes. I understand the game turns. I was responding to the real world comment about the slugs following them same path with a real world comment that your wouldn't *in the real world* have stopped moving just because it's "your turn now"

 

[Condottiere]

Rate of fire is very much related to magazine capacity.

Ideally, you want one bullet, one kill.

Failing that, fast reload.

And, martial arts specialization, Gun Fu.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Of course if you start using such a technique as a player for a quick kill you have to expect the GM to use it against you as well. Fair for the PC fair for the NPC.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Of course if you start using such a technique as a player for a quick kill you have to expect the GM to use it against you as well. Fair for the PC fair for the NPC.

Actually no. When used both ways, Referees will be using this much more than PCs will simply because the Referee attacks the PCs way more than the PCs attack NPCs

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Of course if you start using such a technique as a player for a quick kill you have to expect the GM to use it against you as well. Fair for the PC fair for the NPC.

If I had a dime for every time a player (ahem... me) figures out a interesting and effective way to do combat in an RPG and a fragile threatened GM says... "Y'know I can do it too hur dur".... Sure you can GM, but you will feel cheap when you do so because you didn't think of it on your own. You had to have me, the PC player, show you how it's done.