Generic Spotting

[Sutek]

Well, there's also no magic items that help to hit invisible creatures.

Personally, if you Hide successfully, you can sneak attack in a subsequent round, and some creature that is invisible would get an enormous bonus on Hide checks.

Invisible creatures can Sneak, but it's not as straight forward as in D&D - they still have to work for it a bit...

 

[slaughterj]

The +2 bonus to hit is also in D&D as well as the lose Dex thing. The lack of rule sin Conan means that an invisible character can't sneak attack someone once combat starts, which is weird.

Sure, but it hadn't been mentioned in this thread. The Conan book is sparse on certain rules such as sleeping, invisibility, torch and oil damage, etc. etc., but I think you can piece some parts together on some subjects from various sections of the book and/or draw in a lot from the d20 SRD to fill in the blanks. Maybe Sutek's general idea may be the solution, roll a Hide (or Move Silently?) check for the Invisible foe and compare it to the Spot (or Listen?) check of the other combatant, and if the combatant detects the general location of the foe, then no problem, but otherwise, the Invisible foe should be able to attack the combatant as if they are flatfooted (i.e., no Dodge/Parry bonuses (incl. Dex) except if have Uncanny Dodge or Reflexive Parry (as applicable), and get to add in Sneak Attack damage - don't quote me on these, this is just off the top of my head).

It seems your options are:
1. Do nothing, they get +2 to hit and 50% chance of being missed due to total concealment, and that's it (unless the book says more, seems not according to the posts herein).
2. #1 plus drop DEX bonus
3. #2 plus drop Class Dodge/Parry bonuses
4. Any mix of the above, but add in a spot/listen check versus hide/move silently to determine if those bonuses are lost

 

[Sutek]

Found it: Page 296 of the Atlantean Edition.

Invisible creatures require a DC30 check to notice. Inanimate or unliving invisible things/creatures require a DC40, but it is a +20DC bonus to use Spot ro pinpoint the location of something invisible, and even on a success, the check would succumb to the rules for Total Concealment (50% miss chance as if attacked).

Listen is the only way to do it based off the invisible creature's Move Silently check. You can make a Listen check every round as a Free Action. Groping around for it works too, but obviously has some drawbacks if it's a monster (!).

It continues onto p297 with more specifics on locating invisible creatures and objects.

I believe that since the only way to fundamentally detect an invisible monster, then, is to Listen for it as an action, one must assume that at all other times it is completely impossible to tell where such a creature is. During a combat, I'd assert that Listening is harder, so I'd penalize significantly unless the character used a Standard or Move action to Listen instead of the normally allowed Free Action (that's me houseruling here).

But, the gist is this:

• Concealment is confered by Invisibility.
• Concealment allows for Hide Checks to be made where otherwise Cover would be needed.
• Successful Hide Checks aford the ability to Sneak Attck from that hidden position.
• Therefore, Invisible Creatures can sneak attack if they have that ability.

The big thing is that you cannot Spot an Invisible creature, only hear, smeel or touch it. Youalso cannot sneak attack an invisible creature because of the Concealment rules. Concealment states that you dont'actually attack the target, but instead you attack into it's occupied square (thus the 50% miss chance).

:wink:

But, this isn't "Genereic Spotting" anymore, so I suggest we either get back on topic or start another thread to discuss Spot in detail.

 

[Foxworthy]

Successful Hide Checks aford the ability to Sneak Attack from that hidden position.

Actually I can't find anything that says that explicitly. It makes sense but it's not spelt out anywhere. Though I would love for it to be found somehwere where it has that in black and white.

 

[slaughterj]

Also note, in the Sneak Attack section on p.177, a character being attacked by an invisible opponent can be sneak attacked. Some inferential reading therein indicates that the target loses its Dodge and Parry Defense, which is the basis for the invisible foe to do the sneak attack. Note, Uncanny Dodge (or Reflexive Parry against melee attacks) will retain the Dodge/Parry defense for the target, and also prevent the sneak attack.

This seems to line up with the DnD "loss of DEX" situation against invisible foes mentioned earlier, it's just more severe in Conan because you lose your class bonuses as well.

 

[Foxworthy]

Also note, in the Sneak Attack section on p.177, a character being attacked by an invisible opponent can be sneak attacked. Some inferential reading therein indicates that the target loses its Dodge and Parry Defense, which is the basis for the invisible foe to do the sneak attack. Note, Uncanny Dodge (or Reflexive Parry against melee attacks) will retain the Dodge/Parry defense for the target, and also prevent the sneak attack.

Right which is why I think that the chart from the SRD I posted is missing from the Conan book.

 

[slaughterj]

Of course this also means that using the rules for invisibilty makes Listen only allow you a chance to attack the hidden opponent, not to negate his advantge.

Conceivably you could Spot too, e.g., see the crunch in the sand, etc. as they move about.

 

[slaughterj]

Also note, in the Sneak Attack section on p.177, a character being attacked by an invisible opponent can be sneak attacked. Some inferential reading therein indicates that the target loses its Dodge and Parry Defense, which is the basis for the invisible foe to do the sneak attack. Note, Uncanny Dodge (or Reflexive Parry against melee attacks) will retain the Dodge/Parry defense for the target, and also prevent the sneak attack.

Right which is why I think that the chart from the SRD I posted is missing from the Conan book.

On p. 156 is the Defense Modifiers chart shown on your link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm

While the Attack Modifiers chart appears missing from the book, the one on the link doesn't tell you about attacking invisible foes anyway.

 

[Foxworthy]

On p. 156 is the Defense Modifiers chart shown on your link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm

While the Attack Modifiers chart appears missing from the book, the one on the link doesn't tell you about attacking invisible foes anyway.

I was refering tot he attack modifier chart and if you look under The Attacker Is... then Invsible then footnote 2 it tell you that the defender loses his Dex to AC bonus. It's just that Conan never ported that chart over and changed Dex To AC Bonus To Lose Dodge/Parry

 

[slaughterj]

On p. 156 is the Defense Modifiers chart shown on your link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm

While the Attack Modifiers chart appears missing from the book, the one on the link doesn't tell you about attacking invisible foes anyway.

I was refering tot he attack modifier chart and if you look under The Attacker Is... then Invsible then footnote 2 it tell you that the defender loses his Dex to AC bonus. It's just that Conan never ported that chart over and changed Dex To AC Bonus To Lose Dodge/Parry

Gotcha, well, at least inferentially, in Conan against an invisible foe, you'll lose your dodge / parry unless you have uncanny dodge (for both) / reflexive parry (for parry).

 

[Sutek]

Of course this also means that using the rules for invisibilty makes Listen only allow you a chance to attack the hidden opponent, not to negate his advantge.

Conceivably you could Spot too, e.g., see the crunch in the sand, etc. as they move about.

But you aren't Spotting the invisible being. I'd also have to say that the RAW says that you can't Spot an invisible being, so things like tracks might be either Spot or Search, but have a appropriately high DC.

Tracks of invisible creatures is mentioned on p297 and it says that they can be "tracked normally", which implies use of the Track feat, which is Survival skill based.

 

[Sutek]

Successful Hide Checks aford the ability to Sneak Attack from that hidden position.

Actually I can't find anything that says that explicitly. It makes sense but it's not spelt out anywhere. Though I would love for it to be found somehwere where it has that in black and white.

Seeing now that it says on page 177 that invisible creatures can Sneak Attack, I can now see that I was inferring that statement above. It does afford the situation where sneak attacks can be more aptly executed, but it's not really correct to say the one begets the other.

 

[Trodax]

Gotcha, well, at least inferentially, in Conan against an invisible foe, you'll lose your dodge / parry unless you have uncanny dodge (for both) / reflexive parry (for parry).

I agree with this conclusion that you guys have reached, nice work! As Foxworthy points out, the issue is probably that the "Attack Modifier"-chart was removed in Conan.

 

[Sutek]

If only all these rules weren't (A) so decentralized and (B) at least had page references to one another, we wouldn't have to do this every other week...lol

 

[rgrove0172]

Ok, so whats the long and short of it? Can someone post a synopsis?

 

[Foxworthy]

Ok, so whats the long and short of it? Can someone post a synopsis?

I'll do it when I get home, of course I'll have to re read the thread cause I've forgotten the original question.

 

[slaughterj]

Ok, so whats the long and short of it? Can someone post a synopsis?

Long and short of what? The invisibility discussion or with regard to your original post?

 

[Foxworthy]

Basically all your questions in the first post were spot checks.

Now for a short and brief on what we came up with during our derailment of the thread.

Invsibilty follows the rules in the AE version of the Conan book. The attacker gains the benefits of a bonus of +2 to hit and the opponent is unable to dodge or parry. (As per the chart from the SRD and the refrence to it in Uncanny Dodge.) This allows the invsible attacker the ability to use sneak attack. Though Uncanny Dodge prevents that.

The defender can use a Spot check DC 30 to detect the invisible creature (Inanimate or Undead creatures are DC 40). A plus +20 penalty to the DC is incured if you're trying to pin point the location of the invisible creature (as per Sutek reference.)

The invisible creature may use a Hide check as the SPot DC Instead. The Hide check recieves a +20 Bonus if the Hider moves or a +40 bonus if the Hider doens't move. (as per the hide skill.)

Groping is also possible, but is not recommended in a combat situation.

If you're struck by an invisible attacker you know what location of the attacker (ie the space the creature is in) but you have not pin pointed him.

Listen can be used to pin point an invisibly creature as well. The check is the invisable creatures Move Silently check verses the listeners listen skill. Success by 20 or more pin points the invisible creature.

A table of modifiers is located in the SRD here ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility ) which could be helpful.

If you can pin point the creature you may attack the creature, though the invisible creature still has Total Concealment.

That's the basics of Invisibilty. Now for the use of hide. Here is how I think we agree it, though I'm not saying everyone agrees.

Hiding requires Concealment or Cover. Hide allows the user to become or remain unseen. (as per the Hide Skill)

Basically it makes the user invisible, but it's not true invisiblity. The DC to spot the person hiding is equal to thier hide skill. Once spotted the gain normal benfits from thier concealment or cover.

A person attacking from hiding is given a +2 bonus to attack and the target is unable to dodge or parry as per the invisiblty rules. This is only as long as the hidden attacker is unseen. This allows the hidden attacker to use sneak attack. Though Uncanny Dodge prevents that.

If he was spotted he gains no benefits to his attack.

I think that covers it. Though I'm sure someone disagrees.

 

[slaughterj]

The defender can use a Spot check DC 30 to detect the invisible creature (Inanimate or Undead creatures are DC 40). A plus +20 penalty to the DC is incured if you're trying to pin point the location of the invisible creature (as per Sutek reference.)

Good stuff overall. One thing I wonder about is from the quote above. What does it mean to "detect" the invisible creature? It doesn't seem to mean the ability to attack it, as that seems to require pinpointing the location and still incurring the 50% miss chance...

 

[Trodax]

Groping is also possible, but is not recommended in a combat situation.

:lol: