Generic Spotting

[rgrove0172]

I gues I never gave it too much of a read. I use Spot for rective things, with synergy, and Search for active. Listen for trying to actively make out sounds and Spot for noticing them.

I guess if you house ruled it you would just seperate what I would call "Perception Checks" into something like

NOTICE - When a character inadvertantly sees, hears, feels or otherwise senses something they were not actively searching for. This is dependent on raw sensory ability and situational awareness.

SEARCH - When a character actively looks, listens, feels or otherwise searches for a particular thing consciously. This is a combination of sensory ability and knowledge/experience (knowing what clues may be present to help find the sought for)

 

[Sutek]

Yeah. The way I'm talking about doing it is trhe way we'd done it in D&D 3.5, and I just never gave the Conan Listen entry a full read. Besides, like I said, I have a vast library of non-rules too, house rulings, that Get jumbled. Perception is how I handle it, like you said, but I sort of discern in on the fly OR if the players tell me they are actively doing something or not.

 

[Krushnak]

in my house rules changes im combining the spot and listen skills into awareness and also hide and move silently into stealth.

 

[Foxworthy]

But when the hidden person joins combat they still get the suprise round on the unaware opponents. Which during suprise leaves the unaware flat footed.

No they don't get a surprise round and no their target is not flat footed.

I though there was somethign that covered that, but rechecking I see that the rules on new people joining the battle in the DMG are different.

I think this puts a wrinkle on the Sniping and Sneak Attack idea I posted in another thread since attacking from hiding doesn't leave the opponent flat footed like I thought. Time for a search throught he books since my spot has failed me.

 

[Foxworthy]

Ok, I've done some reading.

Stealth in combat can work as an advantge if you treat a successful Hide check as the person being invisible. Of course that means nothing in Conan as I can't find a chart that gives bonuses for the attacker, I can only find the chart that gives bonuses for the defender.

Here's the chart from the SRD

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm

The diffrence with the SRD defence chart and the Conan defence chart is the footnote number one. In the SRD it's lose your Dex to AC. In Conan it's lose your ability to parry or dodge.

Using that as a guidline on the attack chart woould mean that when an invisible creature attacks the opponent can't use dodge or parry. Which means that attacking while hidden offers a huge advantage especially when it comes to sneak attacks.

Of course this also means that using the rules for invisibilty makes Listen only allow you a chance to attack the hidden opponent, not to negate his advantge.

Of course this is all theory as I don't know if being hidden equal being invisible. Though I know Invisibilty offers a bonus to hide. Of course I cna't actually find any mechanical benefits to the use of hide in combat since they never define the benefits from hide.

I personally think it makes sense that it's treated as being invisible. Since you can't be seen. Though maybe if I check the D&D FAQ's I'll find something more concrete that can be brought over to the Conan rules.

If only Rulesmaster answer Conan questions with official rules.

 

[argo]

But when the hidden person joins combat they still get the suprise round on the unaware opponents. Which during suprise leaves the unaware flat footed.

No they don't get a surprise round and no their target is not flat footed.

I though there was somethign that covered that, but rechecking I see that the rules on new people joining the battle in the DMG are different.

I think this puts a wrinkle on the Sniping and Sneak Attack idea I posted in another thread since attacking from hiding doesn't leave the opponent flat footed like I thought. Time for a search throught he books since my spot has failed me.

Oly is correct that they don't get a suprise round, there is only ever one suprise round per combat.

This touches on an interesting subject though. By the RAW the only benefit of making a successful Hide check is... the other party doesnt' see you. Seems kinda obvious however it is actually exceptionally vague and quite a can of worms.

Most GM's I know (including me) treat hidden characters as non-magically invisible. The logic is that if the other guy doesn't see you then you should have total concealment relative to him (this conclusion is supported by RAW) and a character with total concealment is effectively invisible (this bit is the aforementioned can of worms).

The problem with that argument is that in fact Total Concealment DOES NOT equal Invisible. It is actually the other way around, Invisibility grants Total Concealment along with a few other benefits. The two conditions are not equivalent.

However, as I mentioned I run it that way and IMX most GM's do the same thing without ever even thinking about it and it usually works out fine. It is certainly much simpler this way.

Note that this makes Uncanny Dodge a stronger ability.

Note that making a melee attack while hidden is nearly impossible (-20 to Hide check, blow the check and you come un-hidden just before the attack goes off and the opponent does not lose his Dex bonus).

Later.

 

[argo]

Heh, wrote my last post while you were posting yours Foxworthy :?

As I noted, hiding != invisible but I say play it that way anyway. Oh, and IIRC the DnD FAQ doesn't touch this one. It is one of the more obscure and hotly debated quirks in the rules.

Later.

 

[Jakusotsu]

There isn't any facing in D20, you're presumed to be looking around you at all times and don't have any blindspots.

There are no mechanics for facing in D20. That doesn't mean that the GM can't employ a common sense approach to it.

 

[Oly]

Stealth in combat can work as an advantge if you treat a successful Hide check as the person being invisible. Of course that means nothing in Conan as I can't find a chart that gives bonuses for the attacker, I can only find the chart that gives bonuses for the defender.

Here's the chart from the SRD

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm

The diffrence with the SRD defence chart and the Conan defence chart is the footnote number one. In the SRD it's lose your Dex to AC. In Conan it's lose your ability to parry or dodge.

Using that as a guidline on the attack chart woould mean that when an invisible creature attacks the opponent can't use dodge or parry. Which means that attacking while hidden offers a huge advantage especially when it comes to sneak attacks.

The Conan rules do cover invisibility, page 296 in the Atlantean Edition. You don't loose you ability to dodge or parry, in fact strangely enough you don't have any disadvantage to your defence at all. Your offence, on the other hand, is greatly restricted.

Loosing you ability to dodge or parry in Conan is much worse than loosing your Dex bonus to AC in D&D. Dex bonus is soon outclassed by your class bonus to AC, you've still got a substantion AC left. In Conan you'd have nothing left to add to your base of 10. Maybe that's why they didn't implement the standard conversion of "loose dex bonus" to "unable to dodge or parry", it would be very very powerful.

So in a situation where snipers are in hiding pelting the PCs with arrows the PCs can dodge as usual but they'll have a real hard time finding the attackers and retaliating. That's if you make "hiders" non magically invisible as has been suggested, which does seem to make a lot of sense.

However note that you have to hide again after taking a shot and you'll take a -20 to your hide skill. That hide also counts as a move action so you won't be able to do multiple attacks and then hide again.

 

[Sutek]

I belive you take -20 to you next Hide skill in order to stay hidden, but not if your opposing observers are distracted.

Same page in the Atlantean edition (p91) states the above rule (top of collumn two: Sniping). However, in the paragraph right before that, at the bottom of the first collumn, it states that if observers are momentarily distracted, you may attempt a subsequent Hide check to stay unseen at -10 to the roll.

Now, me...I think getting 4 to 5 d8 of arrow damage from out of nowhere probably counts as distracting.

In other words, the "recipient" of the attack is distracted, and the rest of his group (if any) may be also just be the attack, by my way of reasoning. Shack and awe, ya know, (hehe). The new hiding spot after the shot must be within a number of feet equal to you Hide ranks. So if you ave 11 ranks, you can scoot to a new hiding place up to 11 feet away after that snipe.

The real problem is that these two rules contradict each other. Plus, although it also states later that you can make a Bluff check to aid you in hiding, nothing says how many rounds that takes, or even what sort of action it is.

:?

But, back on topic...

It seems tha in reading the descriptions of Listen, Spot and Search, that Listen and Spot are intended to be reactive, and thus have similar mechanics. Listen, in essence, is auditory Spot. If something happens within range that you might hear (or see with Spot) you can make a roll to hear it.

Search is only in deliberate, non-reactive moments, takes a full-round action to complete, and only covers a 5x5x5 foot cubic space each time you Search.

 

[Foxworthy]

The Conan rules do cover invisibility, page 296 in the Atlantean Edition. You don't loose you ability to dodge or parry, in fact strangely enough you don't have any disadvantage to your defence at all. Your offence, on the other hand, is greatly restricted.

Loosing you ability to dodge or parry in Conan is much worse than loosing your Dex bonus to AC in D&D. Dex bonus is soon outclassed by your class bonus to AC, you've still got a substantion AC left. In Conan you'd have nothing left to add to your base of 10. Maybe that's why they didn't implement the standard conversion of "loose dex bonus" to "unable to dodge or parry", it would be very very powerful.

Well I only have the Pocket Guide avaiable rigth now and I didn't see the invisibilty rules.

I disagree with the lose the ability to dodge or parry would leave you witha ten defence plus the armor your wearing just like D&D. The only difference is that in Conan the armor absorbs the damage while in D&D it prevents you from being hit.

Ranged combat really sucks in this game though.

 

[Oly]

I belive you take -20 to you next Hide skill in order to stay hidden, but not if your opposing observers are distracted.

Same page in the Atlantean edition (p91) states the above rule (top of collumn two: Sniping). However, in the paragraph right before that, at the bottom of the first collumn, it states that if observers are momentarily distracted, you may attempt a subsequent Hide check to stay unseen at -10 to the roll.

Now, me...I think getting 4 to 5 d8 of arrow damage from out of nowhere probably counts as distracting.

In other words, the "recipient" of the attack is distracted, and the rest of his group (if any) may be also just be the attack, by my way of reasoning. Shack and awe, ya know, (hehe). The new hiding spot after the shot must be within a number of feet equal to you Hide ranks. So if you ave 11 ranks, you can scoot to a new hiding place up to 11 feet away after that snipe.

The real problem is that these two rules contradict each other. Plus, although it also states later that you can make a Bluff check to aid you in hiding, nothing says how many rounds that takes, or even what sort of action it is.

The two rules don't contradict each other.

If you are out in the open and being observed then you cannot attempt a hide roll unless you make a bluff check to create a diversion and then move to a hiding place within your hide ranks in feet. You then take a penalty of -10 to your hide.

The rules for Bluff state that using the bluff for that is a standard action. As per the hide rules the hide is then a part of the movement that you made to get to your hiding place.

If you're sniping the you're already hidden. You take a standard action to fire and then as the rules say hiding after that is a move action.

You don't need to bluff to cause a "distraction", in fact you don't even have a standard action left to use bluff that way so it would be impossible.

So the rules are clear enough.

However why it's only a -10 to hide when you've been stood out in the open being observed by the targets but a -20 to hide if you're in the bushes already hidden and sniping at them is a bit odd.....

If it wasn't for the fact that it would be impossible, due to lack of a standard action, for the sniping archer to "distract" the target in order to hide then that would give them a better chance of managing it.

As per the use of the word "flank" "distract" implies something in particular rather than the common use of the phrase.

 

[Oly]

Well I only have the Pocket Guide avaiable rigth now and I didn't see the invisibilty rules.

I disagree with the lose the ability to dodge or parry would leave you witha ten defence plus the armor your wearing just like D&D. The only difference is that in Conan the armor absorbs the damage while in D&D it prevents you from being hit.

Good point, I thought there was some level based factor in a D&D characters AC. There's not so loosing your dex mod to your AC in D&D is indeed equivalent to loosing you ability to dodge and parry in Conan.

However the invisibility rules have, for whatever reason, dropped that effect from a target being attacked by an invisible enemy.

 

[Trodax]

I thought there was some level based factor in a D&D characters AC. There's not so loosing your dex mod to your AC in D&D is indeed equivalent to loosing you ability to dodge and parry in Conan.

Yes, they are roughly equivalent, although I would still say that loosing your ability to dodge or parry in Conan is a bigger deal than loosing your dex mod in D&D. Against someone with a measly defence of 10, finesse attacks will often succeed and maxed-out Power Attacks can usually be taken pretty safely. Loosing your dex mod in D&D allows you to be sneak attacked, but those sneak attacks often have a fair chance of failing. In Conan, not only are you allowed sneak attacks, but those attacks will mostly hit very easily. Sure, DR from armour will subtract a little bit from the damage (unless you also finesse!), but if we're talking about high-level sneaking there will still be a lot of damage coming through.

However the invisibility rules have, for whatever reason, dropped that effect from a target being attacked by an invisible enemy.

That is a bit strange, I hadn't noticed. I've always played (well, the one and only time invisibility has ever come up in my Conan games, at least :wink: ) that you can't dodge or parry against an invisible attacker. The description of Uncanny Dodge suggests as much, although that might be a copy-paste effect from D&D.

 

[Oly]

That is a bit strange, I hadn't noticed. I've always played (well, the one and only time invisibility has ever come up in my Conan games, at least :wink: ) that you can't dodge or parry against an invisible attacker. The description of Uncanny Dodge suggests as much, although that might be a copy-paste effect from D&D.

Yeah you're right, the Uncanny Dodge description does make it sound like an invisible attacker leaves you unable to dodge or parry against them. Given that no such rule is given in the invisibility section then I think it might just be a D&D copy and paste survivor. Could be argued either way though.....

I kinda think that invisible enemies are hard enough to deal with as it is without you being unable to dodge or parry against them.

 

[Foxworthy]

That is a bit strange, I hadn't noticed. I've always played (well, the one and only time invisibility has ever come up in my Conan games, at least :wink: ) that you can't dodge or parry against an invisible attacker. The description of Uncanny Dodge suggests as much, although that might be a copy-paste effect from D&D.

Yeah you're right, the Uncanny Dodge description does make it sound like an invisible attacker leaves you unable to dodge or parry against them. Given that no such rule is given in the invisibility section then I think it might just be a D&D copy and paste survivor. Could be argued either way though.....

I kinda think that invisible enemies are hard enough to deal with as it is without you being unable to dodge or parry against them.

Well in D&D it doesn't have the benefits for the attacker invisibilty.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility

That's the D&D invisibilty. Since I don't have the AE book on me I can only guess that Conan is copied from that. The place where it talk about losing dex to defence in D&D is the chart I posted earlier. Which the attack chart is missing from Conan.

Which I think was accidently left out, otherwise you have no penalty to attacking from prone with a melee weapon either. But with out an offcial source for errata it's basically meaningless.

 

[Sutek]

However why it's only a -10 to hide when you've been stood out in the open being observed by the targets but a -20 to hide if you're in the bushes already hidden and sniping at them is a bit odd.....

That's the contradiction.

Plus, I don't think it sufficiently describes what a distraction might be except offereing a Bluff check as an example. Like I said though, I think getting hit by an arrow would probably be pretty distracting...lol

 

[Foxworthy]

However why it's only a -10 to hide when you've been stood out in the open being observed by the targets but a -20 to hide if you're in the bushes already hidden and sniping at them is a bit odd.....

That's the contradiction.

Plus, I don't think it sufficiently describes what a distraction might be except offereing a Bluff check as an example. Like I said though, I think getting hit by an arrow would probably be pretty distracting...lol

Well they are two similiar but diffrent things. The -10 one is because you have to move fast after your diversion/ distraction. Which is why thier is a limit on how far cover can be from you when you do it.

the -20 is because that's what they say the difficulty is for attacking, charging, or running. But unlike the -10 example you don't need a diversion/distraction to use Hide, because shooting the arrow or bolt or whatever is your distraction. It's just a bit harder cause your distraction gives an idea of where you attacking from and kind of draws attention. Plus since you can't sneak attack with the ranged shot unless you have the opponent flat footed you could be hundreds of feet away and the -1 to thier spot per ten feet of dsitance makes that -20 disappear rather quickly.

And if you need a list of things that distract people you could use the list of distractions for concentration.

 

[slaughterj]

Well I only have the Pocket Guide avaiable rigth now and I didn't see the invisibilty rules.

I disagree with the lose the ability to dodge or parry would leave you witha ten defence plus the armor your wearing just like D&D. The only difference is that in Conan the armor absorbs the damage while in D&D it prevents you from being hit.

Good point, I thought there was some level based factor in a D&D characters AC. There's not so loosing your dex mod to your AC in D&D is indeed equivalent to loosing you ability to dodge and parry in Conan.

However the invisibility rules have, for whatever reason, dropped that effect from a target being attacked by an invisible enemy.

IIRC, invisible attackers get a bonus to hit foes who can't see them, which is effectively the same as the foes having a penalty to their Defense/AC (not exactly what you are talking about but thought it was worth mentioning).

 

[Foxworthy]

The +2 bonus to hit is also in D&D as well as the lose Dex thing. The lack of rule sin Conan means that an invisible character can't sneak attack someone once combat starts, which is weird.