Generic Spotting

[rgrove0172]

In other games Ive played a character's perceptive ability is measured by a trait of some kind - perception, awareness etc. In Conan Im a bit perplexed as to when to use the Spot skill, Search Skill or a Wisdom ability roll. The Hide and Seek elements seem pretty straight forward, as are those when you are actively searching an area for something but what about;

Does the character notice a band of armed men questioning the merchants while they visit the bazarre?

Does the character notice a puff of dust a few miles behind him revealing his has riders on his trail?

Does the character notice the weapons carried by the new man in his company are without a scratch, practically new off the merchant's stall?

Does the character notice a strange winged shadow sailing overhead as they approach the ruins?

Where do acts of perception such as these fit into the rules?

 

[Foxworthy]

All of those would be spot.

Search is used when you're trying to find a trap, a secret door, basically it's used when ever you use more than just sight to find something.

Listen is used for sounds.

Spot is used whenever you are just using sight to find something or notice something.

Wisdom isn't rolled in that manner. Actually I don't know of a single time I've seen Wisdom rolled for something in D&D 3.5 or Conan other than failed use of Dechiper Script.

 

[urdinaran]

Search is more a combination of the hand and eye:

Searching the pockets of that guy you just killed, looking for loose change.
Searching the Sorcerer's bookshelves and tables for a map or other clue.
Searching people coming through the city gate, looking for any contraband.
Searching the outside of the wooden chest, alert for the tell-tale signs of a trap.

etc. etc.

 

[Strom]

I think the only time I've used the wisdom check is to see if a PC recognizes someone they have seen before.

 

[Sutek]

I usually roll spot checks for my players unless they say they are "going to keep thier eyes open" or "be wary" or whatever.

Spot is passive, and the DC is almost always set by someone else making a skll check that sets how hidden the thing is. Basically, this is used to locate things that are actively hiding or actively trying to obscure thier position through skill check or cammo or something like that.

Search is actively searching an area and takes time. Spot does not - it's instant based on whatever the thing is that caould possibly be spotted. It's used for finding well and purposfully hidden things that are typically small or obscured, like a latch that opens a secret door or a key in apile of old rubbish. In any case, the object in question is statically hidden, meaning it's been hidden previously and it isn't able to move or hide on its own.

I also use Spot for hearing and smelling things too. I use Spot and not Search, because humans are heavily sight oriented primates and don't really search by scent or sound very well - it's not the first instinct. Also, the smell or sound has to be strong to Spot it, since that would mean in essence "stumbling accross" a smell or sound.

I oný use Search for smelling since there's a listen skill, but again, the Listen skill is for when the character is searching (as above) but trying to locate a sound.

It all over laps (except where odors are concerned) so just think of Spot as more immediate and instictive and Search as more deliberate.

 

[argo]

All of the OP's examples would be spot checks. Spot and Listen together probably cover 95% of everything that you could ever imagine falling under a "perception" skill. Spot is a very powerful skill because it is used to notice things big and small, near and far away and things that are both hidden and things that are in "plain view" but might not be immediately noticable. Spot is often a "passive" or "reactive" skill check, made in response to an environmental condition, but can also bue used actively, characters can use an action to roll additional spot checks (thus improving their odds of success).

Listen is easy. If it is a noise you use Listen.

Search is detail oriented, hands on and almost always an active-use skill. Search is used to find traps and hidden doors (90% of the time this is about all it is used for), to find tracks if you don't have the Track feat, to toss a hotel room looking for hidden loot, to go through a stack of papers looking for one specific item, to "pat down" someone looking for weapons, etc.

Straight Wisdom checks are used very rarely. You could use a Wis check if the character did (or should have) notticed something but the Player misses it. Success means the character has an "inspiration" and the GM gives the player a gentle hint. Also, if you have perception-type things that do not fall into any other category you can use a straight Wis check to nottice it - smells, tactile sensations and temperature differences would all fall in this category.


Now, because my game uses far fewer traps than dnd's standard dungeon delve I have been worried that Search may be under-valued. So I have been experimenting with changing some of the more "detail oriented" Spot checks to Search checks instead. For example: say the PC's are standing, looking at the NPC whose shirt is missing a button (and what do you know if it isn't the same type of button they found by the murder victim). Now, traditionally that is a Spot check but I have been making stuff like that a Search check instead. IOW make search into the general-puropse "detective" skill instead of the thief-exclusive "trapfinder" skill. I have not decided yet if I like the results. I am still playing around with it.

Later.

 

[Lord Jolly the Scribe]

Could you ask the players to make a Wisdom check when they are looking around to use "common sense" and figure out what they should look for or to plan what idea would be better than the other when dealing with certain races known for deceit or brutality?

 

[Foxworthy]

Could you ask the players to make a Wisdom check when they are looking around to use "common sense" and figure out what they should look for or to plan what idea would be better than the other when dealing with certain races known for deceit or brutality?

Well knowing things about certain races would fall under Knowledge (Geography) or Knowledge (Local).

You could roll Wisdom for common sense if you wish, it's not something covered byt he rules though. I don't do that because I don't like the dice thinkign for the players, but I do give hints and reminders when I need to if the players really get stumped.

 

[thulsa]

Spot and Listen together probably cover 95% of everything that you could ever imagine falling under a "perception" skill.

Say someone tries to sneak up upon you while you are guarding a campsite. Do you roll Spot to see him, or Listen to hear him (versus the opponent's Hide and Move Silently skills, respectively), or do you check both?

- thulsa

 

[Jakusotsu]

Say someone tries to sneak up upon you while you are guarding a campsite. Do you roll Spot to see him, or Listen to hear him (versus the opponent's Hide and Move Silently skills, respectively), or do you check both?

GM's discretion. If the stealthy guy was sneaking up and you were keeping watchful, looking around in general, then you'd probably roll both.

If your GM decided that you were focused on something ahead of you (maybe he's sneaking up in combat, you don't have the luxury of casually checking all your blindspots, or maybe you're looking for the enemy out in the dark forest ahead), he could declare that you couldn't possibly have seen him in the first place. In that case, you might just roll Listen.

Or maybe he's sneaking up to get a shot at you from a rooftop in the middle of a busy marketplace. There's no way you're going to hear him at his distance with all that commotion going on. In that case, you might only get to roll Spot. Also, you might be looking for a target that isn't moving. No movement = no sound.

 

[jadrax]

Does the character notice a band of armed men questioning the merchants while they visit the bazarre?

Personally I think this would be a bit blatant, so if the PCs where in the Bazaar I would tell them it is occurring without a roll. Unless the the Armed men where trying to conceal their Intent. In which case I would use Sense Motive.

Does the character notice a puff of dust a few miles behind him revealing his has riders on his trail?

This would be Spot, TN of the Riders Hide. If the rider behind is not trying to hide the fact hes following, again I would just tell them, as realistically Eventually they are going to spot it.

Does the character notice the weapons carried by the new man in his company are without a scratch, practically new off the merchant's stall?

I would use Appraise for this.

Does the character notice a strange winged shadow sailing overhead as they approach the ruins?

I would use Spot, unless they specifically mention there looking up while approaching the ruins.

 

[Oly]

If your GM decided that you were focused on something ahead of you (maybe he's sneaking up in combat, you don't have the luxury of casually checking all your blindspots, or maybe you're looking for the enemy out in the dark forest ahead), he could declare that you couldn't possibly have seen him in the first place. In that case, you might just roll Listen.

There isn't any facing in D20, you're presumed to be looking around you at all times and don't have any blindspots.

Given that if someone's sneaking up on you in combat you could get both spot and listen checks. However given the striking of swords against each other I'd be tempted to drop the listen check. The sneaker would have to be making an awful noise to be heard over that.

As a slight aside in D20 there isn't really any point in sneaking up on someone in combat. Once combat begins you're no longer flatfooted so your attacker doesn't gain a huge advantage over you.

 

[Foxworthy]

If your GM decided that you were focused on something ahead of you (maybe he's sneaking up in combat, you don't have the luxury of casually checking all your blindspots, or maybe you're looking for the enemy out in the dark forest ahead), he could declare that you couldn't possibly have seen him in the first place. In that case, you might just roll Listen.

There isn't any facing in D20, you're presumed to be looking around you at all times and don't have any blindspots.

Given that if someone's sneaking up on you in combat you could get both spot and listen checks. However given the striking of swords against each other I'd be tempted to drop the listen check. The sneaker would have to be making an awful noise to be heard over that.

As a slight aside in D20 there isn't really any point in sneaking up on someone in combat. Once combat begins you're no longer flatfooted so your attacker doesn't gain a huge advantage over you.

But when the hidden person joins combat they still get the suprise round on the unaware opponents. Which during suprise leaves the unaware flat footed.

As for the sneaking up that would be hide and listen, with all the modifiers that apply.

Of course if you're not spotted but are heard you're still concealed so you still have some advantages.

 

[Sutek]

Listen is easy. If it is a noise you use Listen.

I disagree in that "listen" has to do with interpretation or discernment. One can hear without listening, so I count indiscernable sounds as spot opportunities first, and then require Listen checks to get the details.

Same for spotting physical details. You notice scratches in the stonework. You decide to Search to see what that could mean.

But that's just me.

The upshot is, these are left fairly vague so that they are more flexible.

I mean...there's no "touch" or "taste" skill at all...use either spot or search.

 

[argo]

Spot and Listen together probably cover 95% of everything that you could ever imagine falling under a "perception" skill.

Say someone tries to sneak up upon you while you are guarding a campsite. Do you roll Spot to see him, or Listen to hear him (versus the opponent's Hide and Move Silently skills, respectively), or do you check both?

- thulsa

Generally you roll both. In some situations it may be impossible to perform one of the checks in which case you don't need to roll it. For example: total concealment (50% miss chance) means you cannot see the guy, therefore no need for a spot check.

Just remember that there is no facing in d20, so you still get a spot check even if the guy is sneaking up "behind" you.

Later.

 

[Foxworthy]

the Listen skill is for when the character is searching (as above) but trying to locate a sound.

Actually it's not. Listen is used to determine if someone hears something.

If you read the description of listen you'll find...

Action

Varies. Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action. Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action.

Even if you can't determine what it is that you hear, if it's a sound you use listen. Spot doens't make sense to be used to find a sound.

 

[Sutek]

I gues I never gave it too much of a read. I use Spot for rective things, with synergy, and Search for active. Listen for trying to actively make out sounds and Spot for noticing them.

So chalk it up to house-rule-itis.

lol

 

[urdinaran]

Say someone tries to sneak up upon you while you are guarding a campsite. Do you roll Spot to see him, or Listen to hear him (versus the opponent's Hide and Move Silently skills, respectively), or do you check both?

You would need more details about what is going on.

1. Night time: do a Listen check first, since in the dark you will hear someone before you see them. After that it's a matter of how close they get; check the illumination rules.

2. Day time: Spot first; as stated before this is dependant on if the observer is distracted, terrain, etc.

 

[Oly]

But when the hidden person joins combat they still get the suprise round on the unaware opponents. Which during suprise leaves the unaware flat footed.

No they don't get a surprise round and no their target is not flat footed.

You are only flat footed before you've taken your first action in combat. You either are or you are not flat footed, you're not flat footed relative to some combatants and not others.

In combat there is only "a surprise round", there aren't any more of them.

The rules even state "Generally, surprise does not occur often, as most people are constantly wary when they are in the kinds of situations where combat is a likely occurence."

When someone's already in a fight they are most certainly wary and combat is a bit more than a likely occurence at that point. They're not surprised anymore.

That's the rules anyway.

Personally I've houseruled it a couple of times when I've had an archer sneaking around that they can get in a shot without their opponent being able to dodge it.

 

[Sutek]

That daytime/nighttime wouldn't enter into it for me.

To sneak up, two things have to be accomplished: A Hide and Move Silently rolls.

Both set the DC for Spot and Listen respectively.

I'd still use spot to hear someone sneaking up, unless one of the PCs stated that they are standing watch and being vigilant. To me, Listen works better as a purposeful action adn Spot as coincidental.