General tactics discussion

Just want to kick off a general debate on tactics here, see what people have to say about things.

Feel free to add any tactical questions you fancy, get this moving in different directions.

Kick off with the following;

Assuming all other features are the same, which would you prefer?
Hull 6 and 20 damage or
Hull 5 and 30 damage.

over to you, guys...
 
Anny interceptors? diffrence in Stealth? weapons? -> Important to choose!!

If not hull 6 with 20 pts is the better choise. But I often end up choosing a Nova (hull 5, 36 HP, 2 interceptors) over a chronos (hull 6, 20 HP, 3 interceptors) Because of the fighters and the twin linked batteries + it is very intimidating to the oponent. while a cronos is often dismissed as a treath until they feel the sharp sting of it's railguns. (I prefer people to target my damage soaking Nova's instead of more valuable ships) 8)
 
I think I´d go for hull 5 and 30 damage.

But most likely I´d just pick the ship that looks better... (so maybe I´m wrong in a tactics disussion! :wink: )
 
personally being the rest of the ship exactly the same, i think i would go for the 6/20 option.

i just like the hull 6. it can really make a difference against some weapons.
 
Im-Rehsa said:
personally being the rest of the ship exactly the same, i think i would go for the 6/20 option.

i just like the hull 6. it can really make a difference against some weapons.

Yeah, essentlialy twice as good as a hull 5 really :)
 
Straight up fighting? You should probably prefer the H6:20. But not for the reason you might expect.

The ships can reasonably expect to die at the same velocity. Even simple pulse improves by CAF (or, very commonly, twin-linking) substantially. 2-try pulse v H6: 30.56% hit rate. Expected number of dice to kill = 20 /.3056 = 65.45.

We can try this with 30 and H5: 55.56% rate => 30 / 0.5556 = 54.00. That's a 65.45/54.00 = 21.2% improvement, but hardly what you'd expect from Hull 6&20 vs. H5&30 against simple pulse, CAFed or not.

Your gut, Rynar, is spot-on at the Nova: 36/0.5556 = 64.81, right there with the H6. The bigger ships even get better advanges when you notice the assymmetries between crew and damage allows for use of CBD, which dramatically improves your staying power for one turn.

Against AP, CAFed or Twinned, H6 is worse, of course, but against beam it's better (now, mind you -- many beams out there are SAP, which really eats into H6's advantages).

But ... the other thing that must be considered is that there are three ways to kill a ship. One is to take a score down to zero. Another is to critical it into irrelevance. A third is to board is and own it. The last is to force it down with Stand Down and Prepare to Be Boarded. The third largely is the second, as you have to have your target stopped, and the only surefire way to do that is to get a 1-6, 2-6, 3-6 critical. And while the damage likelihoods stay proportional to the hit rate (and, as seen above, pretty close to their damage thresholds, espeically when you factor AP weaponry into play), the special effects on ships are NOT proportional. They aren't linear like damage is, is a Heaviside distribution, it is or it is not. And those non-damage dependent effects are mandatorily easier to get against H5. In particular, the difference to Drazi between H5 and H6 is spectacular, as there are so many criticals out there that can be relied upon to deny your boresight any shot at all --- 1-6, 2-6, 3-6, 4-5, 4-6, 6-3. The assymmetry remains that H5 is far easier to accumulate critical events upon than H6.

This could be reasonably offset if Criticals could be erased multiple at a time. Unfortunately, this ability is a crew check at difficulty 9 (any predominantly H5 ship user should read All Hands to Deck! before every match. I've seen far, far, far too many people forget this order existed. There's more to life than CBD and CAF!) to get off. This often leaves you repairing one system at a time, a slow and maddening clip. Hey, if you've launched your auxilliary craft and have to turn, at least this order costs you abosolutely nothing at all to execute.

Similarly, if the H5 ship had some other ability -- ignore one critical event (not the damage) every three hits, that would change it all, too. But, it doesn't, and those lovely H5 ships parked on crit-stoppers will continue to taunt us.

Note, of course, that as the ships get smaller and smaller, this becomes less and less relevant. You get critted at Skirmish and lower, you cease to care so much about losing arcs and attack dice and just want to concentrate on living! This is the inverse of the "big-ships-live-and-die-on-crit-rolls" phenomenon.

So, there needs to be some additional enticement, even beyond 30 damage to 20, to get you to H5 instead of 6.
 
Wow CZuschlag, quite analytical...I'd go with H6:20 as well.

Just some other random tactics I'd like to try:

  • 1. Squadron up 3 Omega's and have them fire on the same target with their HLCs. May not be the most effective weapon (unless I finally made a scout redirect roll), but it would sure look cool.
  • 2. Use the Assault version of the Hyperion and steal someone else's ship.
  • 3. Set up Minbari forces heavy on one flank while using a Torotha or two on the opposite side so they appear to be 'flanking'. Of course, a Torotha is not going to do much damage but if my opponent is making a stealth roll against it, that's one less stealth roll they're making on something else - like a Sharlin or whatever. I've used this a couple of times with success.
 
If I was up against a fleet with a high number of precise weapons, I'd be inclined to go H5:30 so I don't get critted to death [can you say crewless Chronos?]. Otherwise hull 6 is where it's at!
 
h6:20 for me.

Its slightly more survivable in terms of pure damage. I generally rate hull 6 worth about 1.66 times more than hull 5. Then you have the fact that you'll take less crits on a hull 6 ships since you're taking less damage average. Of course that's assuming that they're equal otherwise.
 
I'm pretty much with CZushlag - hull 6 is about 1.5 times as good as hull 6 but with wide variations in specific performance. If you start introducing interceptors, GEG, etc. then also the numbers change. However the difference is so small as to not affect my decision based upon the rest of the ships abilities. Even an extra turn on one of the two ships would sway me more than the basic hull 5 vs hull 6. Your point about criticals is entirely valid but again in my opinion only a small part to play - enough to tip a balance on its own but nothing more.

Overall I wouldn't mind but all other things being (exactly) equal I'd take hull 6 damage 20.
 
I guess it really depends on the opponent and other ship traits. Most Minbari have hull 5, so I sometimes look at hull 6 as a luxury.

If I am going up against a very beam heavy fleet, I'll proabably take the 6:20. Otherwise 5:30 is good enough to consider taking

prelude_to_war said:
1. Squadron up 3 Omega's and have them fire on the same target with their HLCs. May not be the most effective weapon (unless I finally made a scout redirect roll), but it would sure look cool.

I sort of did this. Whilst I did not have them as a squadron, they were in close enough formation to look like a squadron. They turned a Tinashi into dust in a one volley of fire (and one Omega failed its Stealth roll). My Delphi was doing the Stealth drop rather then redirect. It was one of those warm happy feeling you sometimes get, when your opponent sudenly becomes scarred.
 
Actually, my tactics resolve against what is after Precise the best trait in the game: Twin-Linked...

This might seem weird, is analytically totally impossible, but sheer experience* (which does count a long way in ACTA) has proven many discussions so far: a 12 TL gun is better then a 4 DD SAP beam...

Why? No frakkin` idea, it just keeps turning out that way. Last sunday at the tourney one of the greater defenders of beamingdom and heavy statline weapons even had to admit that his TWL guns did waaaay better jobs then his beam equipped ones.

So my tactic usually centers around the `Carré` principle which dates back to, well errrm, 1804 when it was first used by Napoleon :oops:

The overlapping TWL batteries create a humongous numbers of dice killzone extending between 10 - 12" around it, and it is (albeit slow) still mobile to shift to the area of the battle. No interceptor, GEG or hull 6 can keep up with those numbers and as a result the enemy gets overwhelmed by sheer little fire...

I think of it as a measly rain trickling when streets get flooded and basement run full**. Not as spectacular as one big rainstorm that fills it up in an instant, but way more annoying due to you watching the water that keeps coming and coming. And an annoyed opponent WILL make mistakes***.

*= at 2 years with an average of 3 battles a week, yes I do consider myself rather experienced with my EA and ISA
**= I mobbed up the last water this morning after the rainstorn in Antwerp the past 2 - 3 days
***= I should confess I have always been a rather defensive player ready to pound on any weakness or mistake an opponent makes, and rarely panic if a beam heavy fleet pops one or two at the start... I will be back in the scrap, and usually am
 
This is a good point. In a Vassal game my Dargan strike cruiser (SFoS stats) destroyed four skirmish level ships in one turn of firing, and the twin particle arrays did most of the damage in each case. The battle laser, with only 2AD, didn't achieve that much, and while the matter cannons were powerful it was the all-round fire from the twin arrays that was the clincher. I can only imagine what the Secundus' heavy array is capable of, with 12AD, double damage, twin-linked on its profile...
 
As someone who's used Abbai, I can confirm this. Never underestimate someone who can pick up a ****load of dice and throw them at you twice if he likes.

Especially true against hull 6 - it's surprisingly vulnerable to secondary weapons because weak becomes irrelevant.

Massed dice are also more likely to rack up criticals; ok they're less damaging than double damage criticals, but if I have 6 normal hits and 2 triple damage hits, which is more likely to critical your weapon and stop you shooting back?

in the 5 vs. 6 question:

Critical hits are a big deal, but I'd argue that they're more something to be scared of if taking Mr. big bad (warlock, etc) than when comparing ships at a given class. Just my thoughts...
 
I have never quite understood why people take such faith in twin linked single damaged weapons. I would take the 4AD SAP DD beam over it every day, especially since you will out range the twin linked weapons. If your opponent has interceptors, the the TL weapons are even less useful.

As far as the Abbai, the thing that worries me are the Combat Lasers, not the TL guns. As the game allows premeasuring, if you allow yourself to get to range 8 on an Abbai, you have made a huge mistake. Most of the Abbai ships are slow. The Bimith is Range 8! Most of the time you can ignore the Bimith. If the Bimith had a Combat Laser, or it's TL guns were Range 12, it would be worth taking. It's a shame considering I really love the model, but if I am playing league, I would take the Halik, Haltona, Xill, and the Solarhawk before I took the Bimith. I would also take 2 Milanis over the Bimith.


Dave
 
If you roll poorly on your double damage, super AP beam, you still come away with only a few points of damage. If you roll poorly on your twin-linked weapon, you can re-roll it. 8 or more dice of twin-linked isn't to be scoffed at, even if it does have poor range. The ship can just APTE towards you, and even if you're turning your ships and moving away, he's disrupting your formation, plan, or whatever else you had going...
 
Worth bearing in mind that you can CAF with your beams (as long as they're not boresight) to get re-rolls. CAF is pointless with TL.
 
Lord David the Denied said:
If you roll poorly on your double damage, super AP beam, you still come away with only a few points of damage. If you roll poorly on your twin-linked weapon, you can re-roll it. 8 or more dice of twin-linked isn't to be scoffed at, even if it does have poor range. The ship can just APTE towards you, and even if you're turning your ships and moving away, he's disrupting your formation, plan, or whatever else you had going...

I'll CAF from long range and the double damage on the critical chart also makes it a winner.


Dave
 
Lord Aldades said:
Actually, my tactics resolve against what is after Precise the best trait in the game: Twin-Linked...

This might seem weird, is analytically totally impossible, but sheer experience* (which does count a long way in ACTA) has proven many discussions so far: a 12 TL gun is better then a 4 DD SAP beam...

12 TL guns produce 3.72 hits, 3.09 damage and 0.62 crits vs hull 6 or 6.72 hits, 5.58 damage and 1.12 crits vs hull 5

4 AD DD SAP beam- 2.8 hits, 5.12 damage, and 0.47 crits vs hull 6 or 4.52, 8.27 damage, and 0.75 crits vs hull 5

So the 12AD TL do about 1.5x the crits, and about 70% of the damage.

Of course the beam gets to ignore interceptors......
 
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