Further defining Starports

[Geir]

Geir? Is this your fault?

Pretty much the whole book is my fault, but it wasn't created in a vacuum.

Why would the shipyard tonnage refer to the total size of the Starport? That is like saying the the storage volume of My car is the size of the car, not the size of the actual storage area, which makes the information absolutely useless.

The information on WBH p. 195 is taken from that of High Guard (p. 69) about the minimum requirements to qualify as a class of starport.

Just give Me the actual damn capacity!

Well there are formulas on actual docking capacity - at both Highport and Downports (WBH p. 198), shipyard build capacity (WBH p. 199), and annual Shipyard output (WBH, p.199).

If it is repurposed for some other thing, then it is no longer a shipyard and should not count as a shipyard.

Then it would be a hangar, with perhaps connections for fittings no longer functioning or usable, or just a perfectly good shipyard without enough workers being used as a hangar, a storage compartment, or a tactical training zone complete with randomly placed shipping containers and miscellaneous junk.

As for maximum ship size and construction tonnage. It is simple. Use one number for both as shipbuilding is both a function of construction capacity and size of the yard itself. Then the writers have a little bit of wiggle room to say that yes, this shipyard can build 100 million CR worth of ships per month, but they only can build ships up to say 100Dtons... This will allow a writer or a Referee to tailor it to their TU without changing the underlying mechanic, and without making everything cookiecutter the same.

The formulas have DMs and a 1D roll for variance, and like everything else in the book can be totally ignored or handwaved into something else, but it provides a baseline number to consider. And as @ottarrus says, in most cases it is ""Traveller Gearhead Stats Up Unnecessary Stuff, Part 12" or maybe Part 13... anyway, if you're doing a sector or trying to look at a Pocket Empire's capacity to do Pocket Empire Things, then it has value. If you're just trying to figure out if the port can fix your fuel pump, it's entirely unnecessary.

 

[Anstett]

I'm gonna ask the dumb question here.
Why are we worried about statting out a starport?
A starport's facilities, personnel, and capabilities are what the planet's UPP and the needs of the campaign say they are.
A Class B port on a world with 1 population is probably gonna be highly automated. A port on a trade route [which the referee decides based on the needs of the campaign anyway] will have more commercial facilities, etc.
I'm kinda seeing all this as another rendition of "Traveller Gearhead Stats Up Unnecessary Stuff, Part 12"

Fully agreed on this is a "details only a particular type Referee might be interested in" project.

For 95% of games I imagine the standard level of detail works very well. This is an exercise to combine all the details that I (and others) can find in one place. I am trying to organize things that are defined in the various books, combined with ideas that are inferred from those. Then people who are interested in further developing can build off of that for their own MTU.

My own quirk on this is to take the 'final' details and then work backwards to come up with some total asset/inventory for GeDeCo based on the current literature to then develop it more. Perhaps only for my own MTU or to share with others afterwards. I am still slowly collecting details and being careful to separate where the various bits and pieces come from.

 

[ottarrus]

Then why write Charted Space at all if you want nothing defined? Go homebrew something.

I understand needing stats starships, weapons, UPPs and so forth. They're part of the mechanics of the game and important to the Traveller experience.
I just get a little surprised at how some of us grogs pick and worry over minor technologies or backdrop scenery and try and define it to a fair-thee-well. There's a lot of stuff that should remain narrative instead of rigidly defined. Clearly that is gonna depend on the referee and their level of detail. I'm well aware of the obsessive/compulsive subthread that runs through all us grogs

 

[Nelphine]

For me the two major benefits are:
Being able to define a starport profile prior to the players choosing a destination, so that they can get additional information by which to make a choice of where to go.
Being able to easily describe how MANY ships (and what size) are already in the system when they arrive, as this (for me) is too often overlooked - and really helps set the tone of what kind of place they are visiting - is it a crazy busy/packed Mexico City? or is it somewhere off in the boonies? A starport class by itself simply doesn't provide that at a glance, as the difference between 2 different class As (or even class Bs) can literally be 100's of thousands of dtons of shipping at a given time.

 

[Vormaerin]

Essentially, it sounds like folks are just want a shorthand code for all the details they work out via the WBH. As the actual values for almost all of this material is already in there.

 

[Vormaerin]

Geir? Is this your fault? Why would the shipyard tonnage refer to the total size of the Starport? That is like saying the the storage volume of My car is the size of the car, not the size of the actual storage area, which makes the information absolutely useless.

The shipyard tonnage is not the total size of the starport. The shipyard tonnage is the total size of the shipyard. Which is substantially larger than the volume of shipping it can construct at one time. They are answering two different questions. One is how big is the shipyard portion of any starport, the other is how much can it build. They are both useful things to know.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I understand needing stats starships, weapons, UPPs and so forth. They're part of the mechanics of the game and important to the Traveller experience.
I just get a little surprised at how some of us grogs pick and worry over minor technologies or backdrop scenery and try and define it to a fair-thee-well. There's a lot of stuff that should remain narrative instead of rigidly defined. Clearly that is gonna depend on the referee and their level of detail. I'm well aware of the obsessive/compulsive subthread that runs through all us grogs

For Me, it is that in most adventures I run, starports are a focus, but I also run mostly sandbox campaigns where the players, not Me determine where the adventure goes. So if they jump to a system that I have not detailed out, it would be nice to have a quick mechanic such as a UWP Code type thing to quick reference. It would also make it easier if you were running a trade heavy game. I don't need to know the minutiae of every last aspect of the starport. For the most part I don't even design the whole starport unless I think My players will need that information. All I want is a quick UWP Code type thing that makes sense, since the systems UWP Code covers only one planet in the system and gives only useless details about the starport itself, or details that are so uselessly vague that they could apply to anything. All it really does currently is tell you if there is a shipyard/repair yards, and what kind of fuel they have. That is it. As it stands right now. I can design a large orbital habitat that is mostly living space with just enough commercial space to be considered Class A, then build a "garage" that is 200Dtons to build ships in and voila! Class A starport with no facilities that a player would expect from a "huge starport" which is how Class As are described.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Pretty much the whole book is my fault, but it wasn't created in a vacuum.

The information on WBH p. 195 is taken from that of High Guard (p. 69) about the minimum requirements to qualify as a class of starport.

Well there are formulas on actual docking capacity - at both Highport and Downports (WBH p. 198), shipyard build capacity (WBH p. 199), and annual Shipyard output (WBH, p.199).

Then it would be a hangar, with perhaps connections for fittings no longer functioning or usable, or just a perfectly good shipyard without enough workers being used as a hangar, a storage compartment, or a tactical training zone complete with randomly placed shipping containers and miscellaneous junk.

The formulas have DMs and a 1D roll for variance, and like everything else in the book can be totally ignored or handwaved into something else, but it provides a baseline number to consider. And as @ottarrus says, in most cases it is ""Traveller Gearhead Stats Up Unnecessary Stuff, Part 12" or maybe Part 13... anyway, if you're doing a sector or trying to look at a Pocket Empire's capacity to do Pocket Empire Things, then it has value. If you're just trying to figure out if the port can fix your fuel pump, it's entirely unnecessary.

BTW... For the record Geir, you are amazing and I love the work you put out! Keep up the good work! I may nitpick at you a bit, but I love your work.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Essentially, it sounds like folks are just want a shorthand code for all the details they work out via the WBH. As the actual values for almost all of this material is already in there.

Yes! This!

 

[MasterGwydion]

The shipyard tonnage is not the total size of the starport. The shipyard tonnage is the total size of the shipyard. Which is substantially larger than the volume of shipping it can construct at one time. They are answering two different questions. One is how big is the shipyard portion of any starport, the other is how much can it build. They are both useful things to know.

Thank you! I apparently need to relearn how to read. Not sure how I screwed that up so badly.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I understand needing stats starships, weapons, UPPs and so forth. They're part of the mechanics of the game and important to the Traveller experience.
I just get a little surprised at how some of us grogs pick and worry over minor technologies or backdrop scenery and try and define it to a fair-thee-well. There's a lot of stuff that should remain narrative instead of rigidly defined. Clearly that is gonna depend on the referee and their level of detail. I'm well aware of the obsessive/compulsive subthread that runs through all us grogs

I think most of Us do this because We cannot plan ahead if We do not know how something works. Like navigating a car. If We don't know the streets and no map is available, there is no way to get from here to there, without tons of trial and error, assuming you can't just see your destination from your starting point. Another example. If you count all countries with over 500 million people as a Class A starport and that is your only metric for defining them, then every country of over 500 million is functionally the same. I am not sure that India and China can be considered the same, even though they are both large and are neighbors.

 

[tytalan]

True, but there are canonical examples of more than one starport facility on the ground and in space.

In the imperium there is only one Star Port per system all others are space ports according to WBH

 

[tytalan]

Agreed on the extraterritorial part.

I cannot find any reference to it being required you dock at a Starport when entering the system.

Logically it makes sense to have radio communication with the Starport; but enter the system, visit a Spaceport to get refueled and leave the system seem to be a regular thing for ships that have nothing else to do in the system.

It goes under the fact that the starport is under the ministry of commerce. Landing elsewhere without first landing at the Starport would be considered an indication that you were smuggling contraband. It’s just like ships coming into a country the cargo has to be checked first if all your doing is landing to refuel there’s no reason to avoid the Starport to get that fuel. Remember the imperium controls interstellar travel it doesn’t control planets

 

[Vormaerin]

In the imperium there is only one Star Port per system all others are space ports according to WBH

Well, I'll just start with the easy one: Terra. It has had 3 starports since the 80s. And this is the quote in The Solomani Front sourcebook for MgT2e:

"Terra has three huge starport complexes. LaGrange Starport in north-eastern Australia is now mainly a military port although there is some civilian traffic for destinations in Asia and Oceania. Phoenix-Mesa Starport in south-western North America is the largest civilian port followed by AECO (African-European Cooperative Organisation) Starport in North Africa. Each of the starport complexes has a large associated orbital highport."

There are other examples but I don't feel like doing the work to dig them up. Literally the only difference between starport and spaceport is which one the local Imperial Agent has his house on. If you want to insist that PMS is a *starport* and AECO and LaGrange are mislabeled and are spaceports, go ahead. It affects absolutely nothing about how they function.

 

[Vormaerin]

It goes under the fact that the starport is under the ministry of commerce. Landing elsewhere without first landing at the Starport would be considered an indication that you were smuggling contraband. It’s just like ships coming into a country the cargo has to be checked first if all your doing is landing to refuel there’s no reason to avoid the Starport to get that fuel. Remember the imperium controls interstellar travel it doesn’t control planets

As far as I can tell, you are just making this up. I have never seen anywhere any suggestion that the Imperium forces every ship to visit the starport. If you can find me one source that says ships have to visit the mainworld before going to the gas giant to refuel or some secondary world or space station, I'll be suitably shocked.

 

[Micky]

interesting discussion between Imperium run starports and those that are planetary as tariffs/fees was a sticky point when I first was immersing myself into the game. Not sure if that was or is canon that SPA don't charge those but it is how I've established the way starports work.. and if they don't... why would any trader or merchant bother heading to planetary spaceport and getting hit with those local taxation/fees when they could just sell (and buy) trade goods at a SPA run and let the local agent deal with moving the goods back and forth from Imperium held warehouses to local planetary markets where such fees would certainly apply at those borders and control points between local planetary government and the Imperium.

any thoughts on that.. starting with.. would or does the Imperium charge such fees upon cargos at its starports I seem to recall they do not and thought it was spelled out in a book and is does run true to promoting trade and not putting barriers (tariffs) upon trade. Perhaps I am wrong. Too many books inhaled in too short of time to remember correctly haha. However if they don't it would make planetary run and operated spaceports sort of a last resort of any merchant ships or free traders.

 

[Vormaerin]

There's certainly tariffs when you shift the goods from the starport to the planet. The Imperium probably doesn't levy tariffs itself, but the planetary government certainly does. Whether you unload at the Imperial starport and pay when you ship them to the nearest city or just pay when you unload at the planetary government controlled spaceport (if one exists) doesn't realy change that you paid.

You can sell your stuff to other people within the starport without incurring tariffs, but they would pay the tariffs if they exported it to the planetary government's jurisdiction.

 

[WHULorigan]

In the imperium there is only one Star Port per system all others are space ports according to WBH

Yes, that has always been the "theory". But there are canonical examples of particularly important worlds which are exceptions to the rule, usually because of high-population/trade-volume and/or traffic.

Terra/Sol, for example, has 3 starports: Phoenix Mesa (renamed Paulo Starport after the Solomani Rim War), AECO Starport in North Africa, and LaGrange, in Australia, which is mostly administered by the Imperial Navy since the Rim War, but does see some civilian traffic. All are Class A.

The rest of the in-system ports are Spaceports, including Luna (Class F), which is Terra's primary traffic control center.

 

[Condottiere]

At a minimum, fees to cover starport operating costs, depreciation, mortgage, bond repayments, and possible expansion.

 

[tytalan]

Yes, that has always been the "theory". But there are canonical examples of particularly important worlds which are exceptions to the rule, usually because of high-population/trade-volume and/or traffic.

Terra/Sol, for example, has 3 starports: Phoenix Mesa (renamed Paulo Starport after the Solomani Rim War), AECO Starport in North Africa, and LaGrange, in Australia, which is mostly administered by the Imperial Navy since the Rim War, but does see some civilian traffic. All are Class A.

The rest of the in-system ports are Spaceports, including Luna (Class F), which is Terra's primary traffic control center.

You find one exception and declare that every were in the rules where it says there’s only 1 starport per system in the imperium is not true. Sol wasn’t always under the control of the imperium in fact it was once the capital of the confederation so maybe the three starports are left over from then.