Further defining Starports

[tytalan]

As far as I can tell, you are just making this up. I have never seen anywhere any suggestion that the Imperium forces every ship to visit the starport. If you can find me one source that says ships have to visit the mainworld before going to the gas giant to refuel or some secondary world or space station, I'll be suitably shocked.

As far as I can tell you’re being dense. No one said that a ship couldn’t stop at the local gas giant and leave at will. Or anything else as long as they are not landing. You only have to stop at the starport if you’re going to land or transship cargo. Things like imperial banned technology or Quarantine would be two main reasons. Why do you think the imperium goes to the effort to have a starport as its embassy instead of just a building? Give me a way how the imperium polices things like importing slaves or preventing trade in WMDs both of which are illegal by imperial law. I guess in your Traveller universe people can ship in slaves no problem they just have to land at a spaceport kinda stupid of the imperium to go to all the cost of maintaining and supporting a starport if they are not going to use it. Not every thing is written out in black and white some things requires you to look at the whole picture and use common sense.

Now I don’t own the imperium source book so I can’t say it’s not stated there but it was mentioned in CT and just makes common sense

 

[Sigtrygg]

In the imperium there is only one Star Port per system all others are space ports according to WBH

Then just for a change a Mongoose book is ignoring previous canon.

 

[Sigtrygg]

You find one exception and declare that every were in the rules where it says there’s only 1 starport per system in the imperium is not true. Sol wasn’t always under the control of the imperium in fact it was once the capital of the confederation so maybe the three starports are left over from then.

Canon has examples of Imperial systems with more than one starport.
WBH just came out and got it wrong.

Your turn.

 

[Sigtrygg]

If you are really into Starports you should get the GURPS Traveller Starports book.

Privately owned starports are those constructed and operated for the sole use of
the owner (or a small selection of tenants). They should be distinguished from local
starports, which are owned by a local government or megacorporation (rather than
the Imperium) but open to general traffic, and from spaceports (p. 60), which usually
lack sufficient refueling service to qualify as private starports.
Many densely populated worlds have a few private Class I ports for the convenience
of inhabitants (usually nobles) who routinely “commute” via small starship.
Class II private ports are very uncommon and Class IIIs rare. (An Edenic world used
as a private retreat for the fabulously wealthy might have a Class III private port
with orbital element.) Class IV or V private ports are almost unheard of.
Restrictions on access vary. In the above example of a private retreat, the downport
might be exclusively for the use of its patrons’ yachts. For security reasons,
freighters delivering supplies would be required to transfer them in orbit to the
retreat’s shuttles. Any unauthorized vessel attempting to approach might even be
fired upon after an initial warning.
Other examples might be on industrial “company worlds,” or ports used by starship
constructors to build and test their secret, experimental designs.

In addition:

The first step in building a starport is determining exactly how many ports that
really is. Most starports consist of one highport and one downport. Some have several
downports, to handle system cargo bound for far-flung destinations or to provide
individual service to nations on balkanized worlds. A rare few – usually Type A
ports with immense traffic patterns – have more than one highport.

 

[Vormaerin]

You are clutching at straws.
Fact - can on has examples of Imperial systems with more than one starport.
Fact - WBH just came out and got it wrong.

Your turn.

I wouldn't say that WBH got it wrong. That is something that has been said for a long time in Traveller, but as a general principle, not an immutable fact. There's always exceptions. It's always meant that the rating in the UWP applied to the main imperial starport and everything else was called a spaceport to distinguish private, local, and secondary ports from the listed one. Whether you call LaGrange and AECO starports or spaceports changes nothing about their capabilities.

 

[Sigtrygg]

You are right. I have edited my post. I could post a lot more clips from GT Starports where more than one downport is mentioned.
The idea of privates starports has definitely been seen The Traveller Adventure.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, there has always been multiple ports in systems. For whatever reason, they felt it was necessary to specify that the *starport* was the one listed in the UWP and all the rest are "spaceports". IIRC, this goes back to Book 6's expanded system generation. But I could be misremembering.

Never really saw the point in the distinction, but it was part of the nomenclature. It's even less significant than the difference between Champagne and Sparkling Wine.

 

[Condottiere]

Ambiance.

 

[Geir]

Okay, I was going to bite my tongue on all this, but now I have blood dripping though my teeth.

Having one starport does not have to relate to having one starport facility. Obviously there is the standard case of the Highport and the Downport, but neither of those needs to necessarily be a singular facility. It could be spread around different stations and/or landing fields all under one port authority (not to be confused with The Port Authority). And that's just the designated Imperial port (which of course only applies to Imperial worlds). Nothing prevent a system, planet, nation, corporation, or random rich person, or random criminal organisation for that matter, from setting up a private port. Imperial law applies within the confines of the designated Starport area, singular or multiple, and beyond 100 (or is it 10?) planetary diameters (and it gets a bit fuzzy there, the local government may have effective authority over the entire system, and the Imperial Navy may patrol as close as orbital, but that's probably different based on the capabilities and particulars of each imperial member world).

Whether or not you have to show up and present yourself at The Starport depends, obviously on whether or not there is more than one choice, and on local laws governing spacecraft operation (i.e. no landing anywhere else, you have to check in with the starport - physically or virtually - first, or whether the local government of groat herders even has the capacity to notice your arrival unless you perform a sonic boom above their tents), and on whether or not there is an Imperial patrol in the area and it takes enough interest in your approach (or departure) to politely ask you to allow a boarding. The second time they ask, it won't be politely...

 

[Condottiere]

You have to look at it as an administrative zone, with one chief administrator.

Let's say the goldilocks zone covers four high population, high tech, colonized planets - speculate how many orbital facilities the Imperium will likely be running in that system.

 

[tytalan]

This is from the Wiki and is why I say that if a ship wants to land or conduct trade on an imperial member world they have to stop at the star port first.
“Therefore, a starport provides the Imperium a method by which to offer consistent commercial-starship service, regulate star-travel for safety, set trade policy, monitor local compliance with said policy, and levy taxes. Weighed against these many advantages are the extremely high cost of the port and its personnel.”. Since we know that trafficking in WMDs and Slaves is against imperial trade policy requiring a ship to land at the Star Port first makes sense.

Also if there’s any level of space industry or off world population centers the space ports will be very busy with system traffic. And yes you can land at a spaceport but the imperium is going to want to make sure your not bring in illegal trade this is just common sense.

Starport Authority - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

 

[Vormaerin]

The wiki does not limit itself to official sources. It's a great resource will all kinds of cool ideas from all kinds of places, including fanzines, third party publications, and whatnot. But as an appeal to authority, it's not gonna cut it.

Regardless, the article does not actually make any statement that the "official Imperial starport" is a must visit location. If I'm taking goods to the Mars colony, I don't have to stop at Earth first. Or if I want to land at Titan for resupply and refueling, there's no suggestion that I have to visit Earth first.

Now, as Geir pointed out, you can just say that every spaceport is a satellite location of the starport, so its the starport wherever you are landing. But that just makes the statement sort of meaningless. Rhea (in Solomani Front) has a scout base and is stated to have the outer system traffic control center, so maybe that's "The Starport" just like Pheonix-Mesa on Earth.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with having it set up to require visits if that's what you like (other than being pretty inefficient in extensively developed systems, but Charted Space isn't awash in those), but it isn't "the way it is".

 

[tytalan]

The wiki does not limit itself to official sources. It's a great resource will all kinds of cool ideas from all kinds of places, including fanzines, third party publications, and whatnot. But as an appeal to authority, it's not gonna cut it.

Regardless, the article does not actually make any statement that the "official Imperial starport" is a must visit location. If I'm taking goods to the Mars colony, I don't have to stop at Earth first. Or if I want to land at Titan for resupply and refueling, there's no suggestion that I have to visit Earth first.

Now, as Geir pointed out, you can just say that every spaceport is a satellite location of the starport, so its the starport wherever you are landing. But that just makes the statement sort of meaningless. Rhea (in Solomani Front) has a scout base and is stated to have the outer system traffic control center, so maybe that's "The Starport" just like Pheonix-Mesa on Earth.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with having it set up to require visits if that's what you like (other than being pretty inefficient in extensively developed systems, but Charted Space isn't awash in those), but it isn't "the way it is".

When you enter a country with cargo your checked for counter-ban cargo and since the ban is based on imperial law which is only enforced at the Starport wouldn’t that be the place that it’s checked? By your way there is a thriving trade in slaves and WMDs as will as new plagues since there’s no restrictions. This is a form of Custom only it’s the imperium restricting certain cargos not the system government. As far as inefficiencies well have you ever had to wait on a shipment going thru customs? Now if you want all the space ports to instead be Star ports you’re going to have a lot of imperial territory spread throughout the system with imperial customs and security at each. I think the limiting to a single starport is a compromise between the power of the system government/s and the imperial government. This would also explain why Terra has 3 ports since the world in under martial law( or at least it was in CT)

 

[Vormaerin]

Pretty sure Terra had 3 starports before the Solomani Sphere even existed. It certainly had them before it was under martial law, because they are on the Invasion Earth map

What you are suggesting is that the US should only have Long Beach as an international port of entry and all the other west coast ports should only get domestic shipping. Or you are suggesting that interstellar trade volumes are so low that it can be centralized without a problem. And that there is enough WMD and slave trade going on that Imperium needs to essentially blockade every planet to inspect all ships going in and can't trust the local customs agents to find that stuff when they are making sure you pay the tariff on that Posonby's Velvet you are importing.

You can make any of those assumptions if you want. I don't see any reason to think they are innate to the setting as written.

 

[CordwainerFish]

Not to mention, I personally have crossed a national border twice without even noticing, because there was absolutely nothing there but a road sign and I was looking elsewhere. Pretty sure no enslaved persons or weapons of mass destruction were being trafficked.

 

[Geir]

Basically it comes down to "It Depends". In the Imperium's 11,000 systems there are probably 10,000 ways it actually works*, with the Referee mostly free to deal with deviations from the assumed: One starport, you have to go there basic approach as desired.

*In about a thousand old Vilani worlds, there's only one way because "We figured out the most efficient way to do things back when you Solomani were still arguing the merits of obsidian vs. copper arrowheads, so this is the way we're going to do it."

 

[Anstett]

I think what this portion of the conversation highlights is that there are likely a lot more system boats traveling around inside of many systems than are often depicted.

Which leads to more targets for pirates, though small poor morsels for the most part. Which leads to more system defense boats who are patrolling to ensure people are following the directives of the Starport.

 

[CordwainerFish]

I think what this portion of the conversation highlights is that there are likely a lot more system boats traveling around inside of many systems than are often depicted.

Which leads to more targets for pirates, though small poor morsels for the most part.

Also, "I can jump but you can't" is a nice place for a pirate to be in.

 

[tytalan]

Pretty sure Terra had 3 starports before the Solomani Sphere even existed. It certainly had them before it was under martial law, because they are on the Invasion Earth map

What you are suggesting is that the US should only have Long Beach as an international port of entry and all the other west coast ports should only get domestic shipping. Or you are suggesting that interstellar trade volumes are so low that it can be centralized without a problem. And that there is enough WMD and slave trade going on that Imperium needs to essentially blockade every planet to inspect all ships going in and can't trust the local customs agents to find that stuff when they are making sure you pay the tariff on that Posonby's Velvet you are importing.

You can make any of those assumptions if you want. I don't see any reason to think they are innate to the setting as written.

Your argument is ridiculous if you compare all the port space in the US you might get the effective size of the average Starport Highport combination. Port size is going to depend on the amount of Trade and considering the fact that the Traveller universe more closely resembles the 1800s than today yes there is a lot less trade than your projecting. Again the WBH is a good source (thank you Gier) your average system is only going to get between 10 to 30 ships a week yes at the high end it’s considerably more but those systems are definitely going to have High Ports which probably deal with most of the traffic. And going thru costumes is not blockading the planet or are you saying that every country in the world blockades their own borders because with few exceptions trade goods go thru customs when they enter a country.

 

[tytalan]

Not to mention, I personally have crossed a national border twice without even noticing, because there was absolutely nothing there but a road sign and I was looking elsewhere. Pretty sure no enslaved persons or weapons of mass destruction were being trafficked.

Another false argument. There are government agencies in the major governments that whole job is trying to stop white slavery which they haven’t and to track possible WMD. And I’ll bet your traveling in EU which has no boarders.