Firearms on the Station

[SentryGun]

Greetings

I have a question, that I cannot find the answer in the books, which I am sure the answer is found.

Can you obtain a permit to carry a firearm on Babylon 5?

My players are working on a background that they are all employees of a private security firm on the station, bodyguards, troubleshooters, etc... and the question of firearms will come up.

Thanks for your help, or your direction to the appropriate book.

Brian K

 

[lastbesthope]

It is mentioned in the show when Garibaldi is removed from his post as head of Security that he can get a permit to carry a PPG but that Zack needs the weapon he was issued with back.

Though in the main rulebook in the Equipment and Vehicles section it states that firearms are black market items on B5 (i.e. illegal).

But remember, you're the GM, make it what you want, just remember, even if they do carry firearms legally, there will be hell to pay if they use them on station without a very good explanation for Garibaldi.

LBH

 

[Greg Smith]

There is a scene where Garibaldi is checking a group of religious aliens onto the station and one of them insists that he cannot be separated from his sacred knife. Garibaldi tells him that he will stick the knife to the outside of the hull and then see whether or not he can be separated from it.

But Ta'lon always carries his sword.

So I figure it is possible to get a licence to carry a weapon. It is also apparently relatively easy to get a blackmarket weapon, given the number we see on the show.

 

[LoneStranger]

Of course the key point there is the type of firearm. If you want a gun that shoots bullets it won't be allowed on, danger of decompression and all that. However if they carry civilian PPGs it should be easy to get the needed permits, especially if it's a legit security service that works with local police forces and etc.

 

[lastbesthope]

Of course the key point there is the type of firearm. If you want a gun that shoots bullets it won't be allowed on, danger of decompression and all that. However if they carry civilian PPGs it should be easy to get the needed permits, especially if it's a legit security service that works with local police forces and etc.

'Slugthrowers' are not impossible to get on station, Garobaldi had one, "Grey 17 is missing".

LBH

 

[ShadowScout]

'Slugthrowers' are not impossible to get on station, Garobaldi had one, "Grey 17 is missing".

Not impossible, just illegal.
And some types of ammo will be even more illegal (armor-piercing, since that's most dangerous, decompression-wise)

One of the things about PPG's is that they fire shots "made of heat". Burns right through organics at a high setting, but when it hits a plasteel wall it just heats the wall (note to characters - don't touch the spot where a PPG blast has hit, or you'll burn your fingers). You need multiple shots to get the metal of a bulkhead to start melting - depending on how thick a bulkhead, many shots. And that's why they`re relatively safe on board a spaceship/station.
So any human who has the neccessary connections, or a plausible cause, can get a permit for a civilian Wesson&Grumman PPG.
Same for aliens - Ta`Lon has his sword (he was an official bodyguard, certified by the then centauri-controlled narn regime), the Centauri Royal Guards had their daggers and PPG's, et cetera.

But noone would get an official permit to carry a slugthrower - because a solid slug has more penetration then a blast of a few super-heated helium molecules. It's not only decompression when a stray shot hits a thin part of the outer hull, or a window, it's also the danger of going through a wall and damaging the stuff that's behind it - tubes and wires that power the machinery the ship/station needs to function (remember, spoace is a very hostile place unless you have machines working on giving you air to breathe, warmth to live etc.)

I suppose, if you have Really good connections you can get around that too. Especially when it concerns "museum pieces" (which may be officialy "non-firing" - like in "firing pin removed", something that could easily be fixed by a competent gunsmith). Remember, Garibaldy never used the gun, he just had the live bullets...

So, if players are employees of a private security firm... it depends on the firm in question. They might get permits for civilian firearms... or they might not, and be told to use non-lethal weaponry only. Stun batons, tasers, foam launchers, whatever. I suppose it will depend on the type of security the firm offers (or what deal they can make with station security!) GM call - what do YOU want? :wink:

 

[SentryGun]

I am thinking of making a side plot about getting the weapons permit. Seems reasonable that the group should have access to firearms, illegal or otherwise, and I see the potential for some enjoyment running a plot where they are simply trying to get the weapons through customs.

Thanks for your feedback, I was just trying to work out the logic.

 

[lastbesthope]

'Slugthrowers' are not impossible to get on station, Garobaldi had one, "Grey 17 is missing".

Not impossible, just illegal.
And some types of ammo will be even more illegal (armor-piercing, since that's most dangerous, decompression-wise)

I wouldn't say it was illegal. Yes Garibaldi will bend or break rules for a good reason, and I think keeping his grandmothers gun handy would qualify as far as he was concerned, but I doubt he would be dumb enough to be casually cleaning it in Security HQ if it was illegal to have it. And Zack's reaction to seeing it does not seem to me to indicate that it is illegal.

As 'Baldi mentions, you can get them for target shooting, maybe that is how he got a licence for it.

LBH

 

[Serenn]

lets see.. Serenn usually brings with him on B5.. a Denbok, two Minbari knives, a Auricon PPG and a Minbari holdout.. and he's usualy the lightest armed party member.. we have a collection of Nova Rifle thingies for most of the party.. only thing i dont take with me is my ancient crystal rifle... its projectile, so thus a no-no...

 

[Perturbatio]

because a solid slug has more penetration then a blast of a few super-heated helium molecules. It's not only decompression when a stray shot hits a thin part of the outer hull,

If B5 were in danger of decompression because of a small slug, it's not space worthy. There are many more dangerous things zipping through space (i.e. micro-meteorites).

 

[LoneStranger]

Actually Perturbatio that is the main reason why they don't like slugthrowers on space ships, of course you have to keep in mind the inside isn't as armored as the outside.

 

[lastbesthope]

If B5 were in danger of decompression because of a small slug, it's not space worthy. There are many more dangerous things zipping through space (i.e. micro-meteorites).

Remember, Space Stations are in constant stress in an attempt (usually successful) to hold everything on the inside. Too much pressure in the wrong place, pow, explosive decompression.

LBH

 

[The Cheat]

If B5 were in danger of decompression because of a small slug, it's not space worthy. There are many more dangerous things zipping through space (i.e. micro-meteorites).

Remember, Space Stations are in constant stress in an attempt (usually successful) to hold everything on the inside. Too much pressure in the wrong place, pow, explosive decompression.

LBH

Starfurys fire weaponry in the nuclear yields, if what you said was true, the entire station would go up in one missed hit.

No, the projectile restriction (punch through the station hull) was probably industry propaganda. A good, real reason is because handguns will cause all sorts of ricochets inside a metal box. No good for anyone.


Explosive decompression takes hours, anyway.

 

[Traveller-61]

Starfurys fire weaponry in the nuclear yields, if what you said was true, the entire station would go up in one missed hit.

No, the projectile restriction (punch through the station hull) was probably industry propaganda. A good, real reason is because handguns will cause all sorts of ricochets inside a metal box. No good for anyone.


Explosive decompression takes hours, anyway.

I would be very interested in where you got the figures for the Starfury's weapons - nothing we have seen on the show, as far as I know, would indicate that level of firepower.

Decompression might take hours, depending on the size of the object that is loosing the atmosphere; however explosive decompression tends to be lot quicker, a definition is: "Explosive decompression (ED) refers to a sudden marked drop in the pressure of a system that occurs in less than 0.1 seconds"

DW

 

[The Cheat]

Admittedly, this is for Nials: http://www.babtech-onthe.net/minbari/fighters.html#firepower
12 Terawatts is 2.87 kilotons per second, and thats the absolute minimum required energy.

However, we know that E-Mines are 150MT(AOG), and they're an area anti-fighter weapon.

 

[Traveller-61]

Admittedly, this is for Nials: http://www.babtech-onthe.net/minbari/fighters.html#firepower
12 Terawatts is 2.87 kilotons per second, and thats the absolute minimum required energy.

However, we know that E-Mines are 150MT(AOG), and they're an area anti-fighter weapon.

Hmm..interesting. My physics is not good enough to confirm or deny your figures so I'll accept those. The site you quote is usually pretty good when it comes to fine details as well.

DW

 

[lastbesthope]

If B5 were in danger of decompression because of a small slug, it's not space worthy. There are many more dangerous things zipping through space (i.e. micro-meteorites).

Remember, Space Stations are in constant stress in an attempt (usually successful) to hold everything on the inside. Too much pressure in the wrong place, pow, explosive decompression.

LBH

Starfurys fire weaponry in the nuclear yields, if what you said was true, the entire station would go up in one missed hit.

It would depend on where they hit, and remember the direction of the incoming fire is important.

LBH

 

[ShadowScout]

However, we know that E-Mines are 150MT(AOG), and they're an area anti-fighter weapon.

And we also "know" that a mere two megatons are enough to kill a sharlin (In the Beginning; OK, so one 2MT to vaporize a fin and a second to finish the Sharlin off). So I would prefer to consider the source of such "knowledge" - the show itself is as inacurate as AoG, and both are more "canon" then anything that pops up on a net-based fan-site (and B5Tech is basically just that - for all their effort) People, you got to remember that you just can't take visuals from the show and extract any "real" figures. Mainly because when these visuals were made, they were made on a "looks cool" basis, and not on a "realistic and consistent" basis. So all these "figures" are basically just half wishful thinking and half "gaseous by-products of disgestion expelled by bowel movements" :wink: and should be taken with a big grain of salt.

Soo... back to the initial discussion...
Yees, a starfury shot would hurt the station. However, a decompression caused by such a shot would be easier to deal with then one caused by a pistol that just namaged to hit the one shatterpoint of the observation window - mainly because by the time the 'furies get into a firing situation, the station would have it's compartments sealed, blast doors closed, and endangered areas evacuated (See "A View from the gallery" for what happend behind the scenes when plasma bolts start to fly around the station). So any air loss would have been localized And the chance of casulties would have been much reduced.

The other danger with internal guns is not decompression, but damage - the station is not really armored on the inside, and a stray bullet that penetrates the wall (unlike PPG blasts which would only burn the paint and heat the wall on the spot they hit - to melt a hole you'd require severeal PPG blasts hitting the same spot) and goes into the wrong pipe can release things more dangerous than bad smells, or cause systems to fail that are life-supporting for some part of the station. How would you like it when you're in a spaceship and some fool shoots your air scrubbers? Or your temperature regulators? Or your fusion bottle controllers? Or your thruster controls on approach to the asteroid belt? Or... (and GM's take note of all the things that can go wrong and need fixing afterward if there's a shootout with penetrating weapons on board!)

 

[Mongoose Si]

to melt a hole you'd require severeal PPG blasts hitting the same spot

Exactly, there have been several episodes where security guards have blasted down doors. I forget exactly which eps, but there had 3 or 4 guards with rifles - they each must have fired 10 shots or so to shoot the door out (so in total, we are talking 30 or 40 shots just to take down an interior door).

 

[The Cheat]

Those being huge, solid metal storm doors 3 inches thick. Noway even a shotgun firing slugs could take down a door faster.