Fighter Squadron

[AnotherDilbert]

Take a simple fighter:
TL 15, 6,4 dT, Hull 2, Armour 15, M-9, R-16, Single Pulse Laser (Accurate), MCr 5,3

TL 15            Hull  2                                5,3  
Military 1               Desired  ∆TL  Rat   #   dTon   Cost   Power
Hull                                             6,40           1,28
Config  Streamlined           2         2               0,30  
Hull strength  Light          1         1        
Armour    Bonded Superdense  15        15        0,77   0,36
    
ManœuvreD  Very Advanced      9    2    9    1   0,53   1,31    6,57
ReactionD  High Technology   16    3   16    1   2,05   0,61  
PowerP  Standard                             1   0,54   1,08   10,85
                
Drop Tank Collar    0,9 dT    1         1    1   0,00   0,00  
Drop Tanks          0,9 dT    1                                 0,02  
Fuel, Power                   4        74    1   1,00    
                
Cockpit                       1              1   1,50   0,01  
    Holographic               1              1          0,00          
Comp         m/10             2        10    1          0,16  
Backup Comp  m/5              1         5    1          0,03  
                
Sensors  Basic                               1      
                
Fixed Mount                
Pulse Laser  Very Advanced    1    2  TL11   1   1,35   3,00

Compare with a reasonable medium fighter:
TL 15, 35 dT, Hull 14, Armour 15, M-9, R-16, Single Fusion Barbette (Long range), MCr 28,3

TL 15            Hull  14                               28,3  
Military 1               Desired  ∆TL  Rat   #   dTon   Cost   Power
Hull                                            35,00           7,00
Config  Standard              1         1               1,75    
Hull strength  Standard       2         2                
Armour    Bonded Superdense  15        15        4,20   2,10    
Rad Shielding                 1         1               0,88    
                                
ManœuvreD  Very Advanced      9    2    9    1   2,52   6,30   31,50
PowerP     TL12,HiTech             3         1   2,50   3,75   53,50
Fuel, Power                   4        16    1   1,00        
                                
ReactionD  High Technology   16    3   16    1   11,20  3,36    
Reaction Fuel   8 turns       1              1    7,58        
                                
Cockpit                       1              1    1,50  0,01    
    Holographic               1              1          0,00    
Comp           m/15           3        15    1          2,00    
Backup Comp    m/10           2        10    1          0,16    
Evade/2                                                 2,00
                                
Sensors    Basic                             1            
                                          
Fusion Barbette                                
HiTech  LongRange, Size       1    3  TL15   1    4,50  6,00   15,00

We get ~11 simple fighters for two medium fighters.
Simple Sqn: Hull 2*11=22, ToHit +10, Dam 2D+20 [Average 27].
Medium Sqn: Hull 2*14=28, ToHit +1, Dam 5D+5 [Average 22,5].

The simple fighters easily win the dogfight roll, because of numbers. ToHit:

Pulse Laser +5[gunner] +10[Sqn] +1[aid] +2[laser] +2[dogf] -2[evade] -3[dodge] = +15, average effect 14 crit.
The simple fighters do an average damage of 2D+20 + 14[effect] - 15[arm] = 26 damage + crit, killing ~3 medium fighters, 150% overkill instantly.

Fusion barb +5[gunner] +1[Sqn] +1[aid] -2[dogf] -3[dodge] = +2, average effect 1.
The medium fighters do an average damage of 5D+5 + 1[effect] - 15[arm] ≈ 8, killing 4 simple fighters.

The simple fighters go from worthless (since they can't penetrate the armour) to overpowered instant masskillers when grouped into squadrons. I don't like it.

Fighter vs fighter combat went from quick and lethal to instant certain kill. I don't like it.

With Capital Ship Battles rules actual crew get no advantage over Virtual Crew, so fleet fighters will be drones. I don't like it (ok, that is personal prejudice).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Take a squadron of fighters closing in on a ship. The ship fires PD turrets at the fighters once at Very Long Range and once at Long Range, then it is dogfight.

Very Long:
Pulse Laser +5[gunner] +3[FireCont] +1[aid] +2[laser] -4[range] -2[evade] = +5, average effect +4 (28% crit)
Damage: 2D+4 +4[effect] - 15[arm] = 0, and 28% crit killing one fighter.

Pulse Laser +5[gunner] +3[FireCont] +1[aid] +2[laser] -2[range] -2[evade] = +7, average effect +6 (58% crit)
Damage: 2D+4 +6[effect] - 15[arm] = 2, and 58% crit killing one fighter.

Each PD turret do a little damage and kills 0,28+0,58 = 0,86 fighter, regardless of how sturdy the fighters are. I don't like it.

 

[arcador]

The problem here is that, unlike fleet combat and missile salvos, armor is not subtracted from the individual weapon dmg, thus resulting, in a weapon more deadly than it is.

 

[Nerhesi]

I really think we can simplify all our lives by saying

"roll to hit as per normal, and once damage (after armour) is determined multiply by the number of weapons fire".

Done. No funky math required or special bonuses. We are talking about a handful of fighters only. Simpler the current incarnation and requiring zero additional math and accurate.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

"roll to hit as per normal, and once damage (after armour) is determined multiply by the number of weapons fire".

Completely agree.

 

[arcador]

Yes, sounds reasonable and calculates the effect as well.

 

[Nerhesi]

"roll to hit as per normal, and once damage (after armour) is determined multiply by the number of weapons fire".

Completely agree.

All agreed then - Mattias is eagle eyed and always paying attention

 

[AnotherDilbert]

All agreed then - Mattias is eagle eyed and always paying attention

And remove the "crit kills a fighter". That is reasonable for light fighters (<10 dT) perhaps, but not for 35 dT barbette fighters.

 

[Nerhesi]

All agreed then - Mattias is eagle eyed and always paying attention

And remove the "crit kills a fighter". That is reasonable for light fighters (<10 dT) perhaps, but not for 35 dT barbette fighters.

Matthew will feel a bit DejaVu here but ultimately that is his decision (to be clear: Agreed and previously discussed)

 

[arcador]

This can complicate things, but let's say a severity 1 hit ~kills 10dt; severity 2 crit kills 20dt. The numbers are pretty of the top of my head, but it might make sense.

 

[Nerhesi]

While it makes sense Arcador, I think when it comes to abstraction we just dump criticals all together (If you notice, there are no criticals in Fleet Combat)

 

[Chas]

While it makes sense Arcador, I think when it comes to abstraction we just dump criticals all together (If you notice, there are no criticals in Fleet Combat)

Hmmm... is that making armored bulkheads redundant?

 

[Nerhesi]

While it makes sense Arcador, I think when it comes to abstraction we just dump criticals all together (If you notice, there are no criticals in Fleet Combat)

Hmmm... is that making armored bulkheads redundant?

In fleet combat, a lot of things get ignored - just depends on you how much you're willing to "cheat".

If you "cheat", avoid bulkheads, computer rating, enough power for weapons, staterooms for crew, sensors, etc... then yes you can absolutely create some "efficient card" - but it's not really a ship.

It also wont work so well using the hybrid system

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Hmmm... is that making armored bulkheads redundant?

With the most recent rules crits are almost always Severity 1 (unless we are firing bays at 1000 dT or smaller ships, or spinals). Armoured Bulkheads do nothing against Severity 1 crits. So Armoured Bulkheads are of highly questionable utility.

 

[arcador]

Yes, if this is the place for suggestion a good idea might be: the armored bulkhead ignores the first severity 1 hit (or reduces the severity with 1 for bigger criticals). This works only once, after that it has to be repaired.

 

[Nerhesi]

Hmmm... is that making armored bulkheads redundant?

With the most recent rules crits are almost always Severity 1 (unless we are firing bays at 1000 dT or smaller ships, or spinals). Armoured Bulkheads do nothing against Severity 1 crits. So Armoured Bulkheads are of highly questionable utility.

How do they fare in Hybrid Damage scenario when you're firing all weapons of the same type together?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

How do they fare in Hybrid Damage scenario when you're firing all weapons of the same type together?

I haven't tried.

A 50kT cruiser has around 27500 Hull, 5% is 1375. A Severity 4 crit starts at 4125. A Large Particle does around 30 damage when it crits. You'd need ~140 Large Particle to make a single substantial crit on that cruiser. That's 70 kT worth of bays. 2*28kT worth of spinal will kill the same cruiser. I'd go with the spinals.

A single Large bay on a 2500dT frigate will make a Sev 1 crit, 60 (times crit chance) frigates will crit kill any ship much more cheaply. 100 frigates will crit kill a Death Star every round, and ignore Armoured Bulkheads.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Cheap Missile Drone
3 dT, Armour 15, Hull 1, MCr 2,8 + 2,5 for missiles
M-9, R-16 (10 rounds burning PP fuel)
Fixed Missile Rack, up to 7 missiles in magazine.

TL 15           Hull  1,2                            5,979    
Military 1               Desired  Rat    #    dTon    Cost    Power    
Hull                                           3,0              1
Config    Standard            1    1                 0,150    
Hull strength    Standard     2    2                
Armour    Bonded Superdense  15   15           0,4   0,180    
                            
ManœuvreD VAdv,2*Size         9    9    1      0,2   0,540      3
ReactionD HiTech,3*FuelEff   16   16    1      1,0   0,288           10 turns
PowerP    TL12,HiTech,3*Size            1      0,2   0,231      3
Fuel, Power                   4    4    1      1,0        
                            
Comp      m/10 fib            2   10    1            0,240    
Software: Virtual Crew/0                             1,000    
                            
Sensors    Basic                        1            
                            
Fixed Mount Missile Rack      1  TL7    1            0,850    
                            
Missiles, Nuclear             4         4            1,800    
Missiles, Advanced            2         2    0,2     0,700

Group into squadrons. Tactic: Slowly close range, enter Very Long on round 7. Launch Nukes on round 1 & 2 and Advanced on round 4 & 5. Close to Very Long and launch nukes on round 7 & 8.

Nuke launched on round 1 has a flight time of 10 and arrives on round 11.
Advanced launched on round 4 has a flight time of 7 and arrives on round 11.
Nuke launched on round 7 has a flight time of 4 and arrives on round 11.

On rounds 11 and 12 three salvoes hit the enemy from the same drone squadron easily overwhelming PD.

Example:
Take a 110 kT Particle Ion BC from the "Fleet Combat system" thread:
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=900151#p900151
It has 80666 Hull, 400 PD Batteries, and cost GCr 123. Let it fight 5000 drones (at 30% of the BC's cost).

On round 11 and 12 the BC is attacked by 3 salvoes of 5000 missiles each ≈ 15000 missiles. Point Defence kills 400 * 10,5 ≈ 4200 missiles. About 10800 missiles hit, 5800 of which are nukes, doing 5800 * ( 6D-15) + 5000*(5D-15) ≈ 49800 damage, killing the BC in two rounds.

If only one salvo arrives each round most missiles will be shot down by PD and only ~800 missiles would hit doing 4800 damage. After 6 rounds the drones magazine would be empty and the BC has only lost 35% of it's hull.


This is a very difficult tactic to counter. The only easy way would be to jump.

 

[PsiTraveller]

This is a valid tactic, and you could coordinate other ships in a battle at different ranges to do the same thing. Coordinating attacks of salvos so PD is overwhelmed is a good tactic. Fighter squadrons could hold at different ranges as well and time their launches to give a momentary overwhelming hit. You might want to see if the Battle System software could help in executing the idea.

This tactic could also help against black Globes to try and overwhelm capacitors.

So now we enter the world of the Wild Weasel anti salvo ship that is designed to target salvos in flight at a greater distance from the ship. The discussion of fragmentation weapons and counter salvos from ships could offer a whole new chapter in the supply catalogue.

The answer to fighters is more fighters I guess. Or the ability to light up a wall of nukes at a point in space and crisp anything flying through the sphere of destruction.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

As the rules stand, this completely destroys the precarious balance between missiles and point defence. We risk that missiles becomes the overwhelmingly best weapon in the game.