Using the rules you're using, shouldn't it be:Supplement Four said:I've got characters with STR 7. That's a -2 Damage modifier.
They use poinards, doing 1d6 -2 damage when they hit. Minimum damage is 1 point.
They are currently fighting foes wearing leather armor (DR 4).
Which means...when they hit but are unsuccessful with a finesse attack...
d6 result of 1-4 = 0 points of damage because of armor damage reduction.
d6 result of 5-6 = 1 point of damage under the minimum damage rule.
Krushnak said:Sup4 with a strength mod of -2 and the opponent having dr4 it means they will never hurt them as even if they roll a 6 on the d6 it will come out as 4 after the strength gets applied and then do nothing against the armour.
Sutek said:Yeah, dudes. A -2 STR mod means zip to the thread. Any character with a -2 STR mod would, reasonably, have a high DEX and be using Finesse Attacks, be one of the non-martial classes (Noble, Sorcerer, etc.)
Krushnak said:You take the strength penalty away from the damage roll before applying armour. Otherwise there wouldnt need to be two minimum damage rules..
Sutek said:Well, then you are doing it incorrectly. Mods to damage are to the damage roll, so the -2 would apply before comparing to DR.
Supplement Four said:Your complaint, as I read it, is that it's too easy for a PC to get downed by a blow (Massive Damage, or whatever) at higher levels. When that happens, the player playing that character has nothing to do because his character is either incapacitated or dead.
My first instict, if I felt that way about the rules, would be to change the Massive Damage rule. Instead of 20 points, change it back to 50 points as it is in the regular 3.5 rules.
One little change, and you're done.
Or, you can make a tweak from the defensive point of view. Above I wrote my house tweak for the Second Wind option for Fate Point use. Consider using that in your game--or even award more hit points (Blow a Fate Point and automatically be at full hit points).
My point is: You can make one, simple rule change (either the Massive Damage, or the Fate Point) and achieve your goal. You don't need to make the multiple rule changes you've suggested with the Archeronian edition (unless you just want to). A simple rule change (or rule ignore, if you ignore Massive Damage) can get you fixed.
I know some of your argument is based on enemy weapons doing damage and wearing down PCs, killing them without doing Massive Damage. So, a Fate Point option may be the better rule change for you. Just figure a rule (like my Second Wind) that a PC can use (not unlike a potion of healing) that a PC can use when he gets low on hit points.
That will fix you right up.
You could award Fate Points for being heroic--and every time the PC rolls a natural 20 on a combat throw, he gets one as well--that should keep the PCs in Fate Points.
Minimal changes--and problem solved.
Sutek said:But I don't think that's his problem, Sup4. He's saying that the math breaks apart in a way he doesn't like such that characters above 10th either have a very easy time hitting, or a very herd time hitting. The example was two Barbarians going at it, never hitting each other.
My fist though is that I'd have to see the characters and see if they are both tweaked, having all the right feats and everything to be absolutely decked out for combat prowess. My guess is that's why nobody is scoring hits.
I've been at RPGing for decades and loads of people try to build a better mousetrap, but rarely do they get it right. D20 in the 3.5 incarnation of D&D was great, but Mongoose, in my opinion, topped it, making the game flow spotless. Part of what they did was plateau everyone after 10th level so that progression became more about Class Features, Feats, and the interaction between the two (I'm meaning Multi-classing when I mention Class Feature gain also).
But, that's why I used the euphemism "throwing the baby out with the bath water" because I read the rule 'fixes' and see something that attempts to address moderate rolls resulting in too many high hit rolls, or that somehow DV is inflated and people are missing all the time. I can't imaging that being the fault of a system that I've played now for years, but more probably a miss-use of character build ideology where the end result is what we used to refer to in the olden days as a "twinky"; a character geared out to be min/maxed (now called "optimization") so that every possible bonus is eked out of the system for the sole purpose of making a combat monstrosity.
That is never a fault of the system.
Now the only thing I do like is the addition of Hero Points, because that lets players have a little more fun control over minor out-of-game things like die rolls and stuff without having to adjust or involve Fate Point rules. The rest of this is totally unnecessary.
Majestic7 said:You must have misunderstood what my aims are or just haven't read my previous posts. You can't fix the problems with attack and defence progression without - well - fixing the attack and defence progression.
Supplement Four said:I suggested above using Active Defense. That should fix your problem in one simple, easy-cheesy rule. No revamp of the rules needed.
Majestic7 said:Only Hit Points reach a plateau after 10th level. Everything else - Base Attack, Defences, stuff like Power Points - keep increasing.
While I mostly agree with what you say, I don't think that having attack outstrip defense automatically causes unreasonable results. Remember that we also have escalating hit points, and it all depends on what the impact of a succesfull hit is. That might have sounded obscure, but what I mean is that I think the deadliness of the Conan system is part of the problem here (and by deadliness I mean the high weapon damages (especially those grotesque two-handers, of course) and the massive damage rule).Warma said:The core mathematics in the relation between defenses and attacks are faulty. In d20 the absolute level of defense is irrelevant. Only the difference between defense and attack matter. If you progress them differently, you will not get reasonable results.
Trodax said:Warma said:I will add that I have always thought the damage-output of two-handed weapons is simply too much in Conan, and, since high-level characters also have more hit points, I don't think the high-level coin-toss would be that bad if everyone was armed with a simple broadsword (all the examples I've seen with these horrendous chances of causing MD with the first hit are with a greatsword/bardiche-wielder).