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Even more Drone questions it never stops!
- Thread starter MarkDawg
- Start date
seattledv8
Mongoose
delete
seattledv8
Mongoose
Well , thats great, I'm alway open to how other people play BUT, that in no way tells me what the actual rules say.
I've played many different systems, often with rules that have been played a certain way only to find out later that we have been misplaying a rule.
House rules do not help in deciding what the rules are, in fact it only confuses the issue.
No one has stated the rules, or the reasons why they play it this way.
For example Anti drone states " Roll a die for every Attack Die of drones attacking a ship...."
Where Stealth states "For every hit a ship with this trait takes...."
These are two different things.
As it stands the ADD has to roll as many die as the drones have fired, no one has came up with a good rules argument otherwise.
Good fluff reasons yes, but fluff does not =rules
I've played many different systems, often with rules that have been played a certain way only to find out later that we have been misplaying a rule.
House rules do not help in deciding what the rules are, in fact it only confuses the issue.
No one has stated the rules, or the reasons why they play it this way.
For example Anti drone states " Roll a die for every Attack Die of drones attacking a ship...."
Where Stealth states "For every hit a ship with this trait takes...."
These are two different things.
As it stands the ADD has to roll as many die as the drones have fired, no one has came up with a good rules argument otherwise.
Good fluff reasons yes, but fluff does not =rules
For example Anti drone states " Roll a die for every Attack Die of drones attacking a ship...."
Page 44.
Wierd Situations
Does this apply to other weapons like phasers too?
Yes, it is always the defending ship's choice which defence to use first.
The 4 ad of drones were stopped by phaser fire which leaves 2 ad attacking the ship. You would roll 2d6. You would roll 2d6 in the first example from the original poster as well.
I don't think Matt needs to clairify this as it is taken right out of the rulebook. I can't see what the confusion is all about?
Really, I don't think you can make it any more plain then that?
Asguard101
Mongoose
Well seeing as it is Saturday going on Sunday, I doubt you'll see a answer from Matt till Monday, so there is no reason to going back and forth on this.
scoutdad said:Well, I'm not Matt, but the way our group plays it (since defender can select the order of defensive elements) would be to roll 2d6 for the two remaining AD of drones.
now if this is incorrect, I do wish someone in power would let me know.
I should note that is how we play it as well.
Yes it is going to take Mathew stepping in here and giving us a ideal again.
The way we have played from day one is that all weapon fire be it Offensive or Defensive must be declared before the first die is rolled. Order of fire can be resolved any way you choose.
If I attack with 4 Phasers 4 Photons and 4 Drones. The order I resolve the fire is upto me. Okay say that I the
Target explodes after resolving only 4 Phasers and 2 Photons. What happens to my last 2 Photons and Drone? Can i change their targets to another ship? No the excess weapon fire still falls on the now destroyed ship.
Ok switch that over to Defensive Fire I must allocate all weapon fire aginst the Attack Drones BEFORE I resolve the first die roll right? Otherwise I gain a advantage of having 3 completely seprate Defensive Fire opportunites aginst the incoming Droned and can now evaluate the effectiveness of my fire before I roll the next weapon system. Example I allocate 4 Phases. 2Drones and the Anti-Drone and roll phasers first and they kill all the Drones. Did my 2 Drones fire at dead drones? Does my Anti -Drone duck out of rolling even though I comitted it to the Defensive Fire?
The way we have played from day one is that all weapon fire be it Offensive or Defensive must be declared before the first die is rolled. Order of fire can be resolved any way you choose.
If I attack with 4 Phasers 4 Photons and 4 Drones. The order I resolve the fire is upto me. Okay say that I the
Target explodes after resolving only 4 Phasers and 2 Photons. What happens to my last 2 Photons and Drone? Can i change their targets to another ship? No the excess weapon fire still falls on the now destroyed ship.
Ok switch that over to Defensive Fire I must allocate all weapon fire aginst the Attack Drones BEFORE I resolve the first die roll right? Otherwise I gain a advantage of having 3 completely seprate Defensive Fire opportunites aginst the incoming Droned and can now evaluate the effectiveness of my fire before I roll the next weapon system. Example I allocate 4 Phases. 2Drones and the Anti-Drone and roll phasers first and they kill all the Drones. Did my 2 Drones fire at dead drones? Does my Anti -Drone duck out of rolling even though I comitted it to the Defensive Fire?
Yes you allocate how many phasers you want to fire.
You nominate the order of how your defences are used. If you nominate your phasers first then roll and see how many drones they take out. Then if there were drones left you would nominate your drones second to take them out. Then if there are any drones left you would use add.
Not trying to be rude, but again its on page 44.
You nominate the order of how your defences are used. If you nominate your phasers first then roll and see how many drones they take out. Then if there were drones left you would nominate your drones second to take them out. Then if there are any drones left you would use add.
Not trying to be rude, but again its on page 44.
seattledv8
Mongoose
Well except no one is disputing the order in which you can use ADD, phasers, drones and lastly tractor beams.
That is clear, the rules on page 44 don't address this question and as such are no help.
That is clear, the rules on page 44 don't address this question and as such are no help.
The rules on 44 does answer the question. In the original example if 4 drones are comming at the ship and you use the phasers first, and remove 2 ad of drones with the phasers then you only have 2 drones left.
On page 16 in the Against Drones section it states every successful hit will remove 1 attack dice of drones. So if you choose to use phasers first and remove 2 ad then you only have 2ad left.
Next you use Anti drones to remove the 2 ad of drones.
If you want to use the Anti drones first then you would roll 4 dice as that is what is comming at the ship before you use phasers.
If you choose to use stealth first then you have 4d6 hits to deal with on a 2+.
Tractor beams are always last.
You decide each defence in the order that you wish just like the rulebook says.
On page 16 in the Against Drones section it states every successful hit will remove 1 attack dice of drones. So if you choose to use phasers first and remove 2 ad then you only have 2ad left.
Next you use Anti drones to remove the 2 ad of drones.
If you want to use the Anti drones first then you would roll 4 dice as that is what is comming at the ship before you use phasers.
If you choose to use stealth first then you have 4d6 hits to deal with on a 2+.
Tractor beams are always last.
You decide each defence in the order that you wish just like the rulebook says.
Stumonster
Mongoose
It is also important to look at the sections of the rules that the ADD and Defensive fire rules are in. The ADD trait is laid out in the basic rules. So, the wording there that "roll 1 die for each AD of drones attacking the ship" is correct for the basic rules: there is no other way to shoot down a drone when using only those rules. The rules for defensive fire are in the advanced rules section, and therefore overrule the wording of the ADD description in the basic rules, as NOW you can try other methods to shoot down drones THEN use the ADD, or just use the ADD, or whatever.
The same situation applied to the basic rule that says ships may not split fire from weapon systems, but in the advanced rules it says you can. Matt already ruled that "both are correct, it just depends on if you are playing advanced or basic rules". The same applies here I would think.
The same situation applied to the basic rule that says ships may not split fire from weapon systems, but in the advanced rules it says you can. Matt already ruled that "both are correct, it just depends on if you are playing advanced or basic rules". The same applies here I would think.
seattledv8 said:As it stands the ADD has to roll as many die as the drones have fired, no one has came up with a good rules argument otherwise
No you don't, you roll the ADD based on how many drones are attacking the ship. That is not of neccesity the same as fired, I fire 4 drones at long range, if I hit with only 2 do you use 4 ADD dice because I fired 4?
At the point I use the ADD how many drones are attacking the ship, if I have already shot down some? It is not the full amount, because they no longer even exist.
Your argument is no more right than the other way round. There is a perfectly good rules argument as to why you do what we are doing. It might be wrong, but suggesting it is not a good argument based on the rules is just daft.
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
This has been argued again and again and again.
See here for a compelation of Matts postings on the rules.
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=50573
See here for a compelation of Matts postings on the rules.
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=50573
Captain Jonah I believe the ambiguity is from this half in the post. Which makes it more difficult since it is stated in those words.
• Roll as many dice as there are drones in the attacking wave (all Drones fired by one ship at one target make up the wave),
I think we all have it down correctly and not house ruling. I think some people would like it posted in words so that they know that its correct.
A few examples of how to play should be an essential part in any FAQ.
• Roll as many dice as there are drones in the attacking wave (all Drones fired by one ship at one target make up the wave),
I think we all have it down correctly and not house ruling. I think some people would like it posted in words so that they know that its correct.
Okay simple simple solution here. Mathew writes a Example of Defensive Fire involving Phasers, Drones, and Ant-Drone then puts that in the FAQ PDF. This question keeps coming up and it would be nice to see a example of it written up.
A few examples of how to play should be an essential part in any FAQ.
seattledv8
Mongoose
Thank you Captain Jonah, that answered it quite well.
(Also thank you for compiling all of these answers, that is a great resource)
(Also thank you for compiling all of these answers, that is a great resource)
No seattledv8 once again this did not answer the question. We still need Mathew to clarify the definition of a Attack. As has been stated numerous times in this thread Page 44 is not being question. What is being question is the mechanics of Defensive Fire.
By Nominating a Defensive System have I committed it to fire just as would happen with Offensive Fire? If not where is this stated.
My interpenetration of Defensive fire as being simultaneous still holds true. Nothing anyone has said or anything on Page 44 or even in Mathews response contradicts this.
In the Defensive Fire Phase I have to nominate what I am defending the unit with. Literally at this point I nominate each Defensive Action against ALL incoming Attack Die of Drones.
Lets make it interesting and say a Klingon Battle Station is being a by a Kzinti Dreadnaught. All Direct Fire is resolved and accounted for that just leaves 6 Attack Die of incoming Drones. In the Defensive Fire Phase the Klingon nominates, 1 Phaser-4 against 6 Attack Die of Drones, 1 Phaser-1 against 6 Attack Die of Drones, 2 Phaser-3s against 6 Attack Die of Drones, an Anti-Drone Trait against 6 Attack Die of Drones and 2 Tractor Beams (Foolish Klingon but he did it.) Now we know based on Page 45 and Mathews Comments on the Board that the order of resolving these (Instantaneous) Defensive Fire Actions is up to the Klingon. So how does this get resolved. We already know that the only thing certain is the Tractor Beams are resolved last.
The Question is, as each Defensive Action takes place am I keeping a running tally of whats left or is each Action resolved against 6 Attack Die of Drones then at the end of the Phase I remove the number of Attack Dice that everything stopped?
Now Captian Jonah did a fine job of tracking this points as they came up but even Mathew stated untill it appears in print or as a FAQ nothing stated here is gospel.
By Nominating a Defensive System have I committed it to fire just as would happen with Offensive Fire? If not where is this stated.
My interpenetration of Defensive fire as being simultaneous still holds true. Nothing anyone has said or anything on Page 44 or even in Mathews response contradicts this.
In the Defensive Fire Phase I have to nominate what I am defending the unit with. Literally at this point I nominate each Defensive Action against ALL incoming Attack Die of Drones.
Lets make it interesting and say a Klingon Battle Station is being a by a Kzinti Dreadnaught. All Direct Fire is resolved and accounted for that just leaves 6 Attack Die of incoming Drones. In the Defensive Fire Phase the Klingon nominates, 1 Phaser-4 against 6 Attack Die of Drones, 1 Phaser-1 against 6 Attack Die of Drones, 2 Phaser-3s against 6 Attack Die of Drones, an Anti-Drone Trait against 6 Attack Die of Drones and 2 Tractor Beams (Foolish Klingon but he did it.) Now we know based on Page 45 and Mathews Comments on the Board that the order of resolving these (Instantaneous) Defensive Fire Actions is up to the Klingon. So how does this get resolved. We already know that the only thing certain is the Tractor Beams are resolved last.
The Question is, as each Defensive Action takes place am I keeping a running tally of whats left or is each Action resolved against 6 Attack Die of Drones then at the end of the Phase I remove the number of Attack Dice that everything stopped?
Now Captian Jonah did a fine job of tracking this points as they came up but even Mathew stated untill it appears in print or as a FAQ nothing stated here is gospel.
seattledv8
Mongoose
I appreciate your input Rambler, but it did answer it for me.
A) The rule in the book
B) Mathew's reply to your question
and Captain Jonah's excellent collection of Mr. Sprange's rule musings
C)
In each case it tells us to roll a die for every drone fired, not for the drones that get though.
This is not like stealth where you roll for every 'hit'
The rule is clear to me.
I agree to disagree with the other side.
A) The rule in the book
Roll a die for every Attack Die of drones attacking a ship with the Anti-Drone trait.
B) Mathew's reply to your question
Roll a die for _every_ Attack Die of drones...
and Captain Jonah's excellent collection of Mr. Sprange's rule musings
C)
Roll as many dice as there are drones in the attacking wave (all Drones fired by one ship at one target make up the wave)
In each case it tells us to roll a die for every drone fired, not for the drones that get though.
This is not like stealth where you roll for every 'hit'
The rule is clear to me.
I agree to disagree with the other side.
Two points about the quote from Capt J's other topic:
1) Those are not pull-quotes from Matthew's postings, but rather Capt J's paraphrasing and summarizations.
2) If you go to that topic and scroll down about a dozen messages, there's a post from Matthew saying that his postings on the board are -NOT- to be considered as rulings.
1) Those are not pull-quotes from Matthew's postings, but rather Capt J's paraphrasing and summarizations.
2) If you go to that topic and scroll down about a dozen messages, there's a post from Matthew saying that his postings on the board are -NOT- to be considered as rulings.
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