Elric: Reflection rune too powerful?

[danskmacabre]

Hmm, been running Elric and one of the players has taken the "Reflection" rune.
This seems waayy overpowered.

Basically as long as they're aware of the attack, any physical attack is instantly reflected back on the attacker.
So a sorceror could inscribe 5 points of reflection on themselves and 5 attacks per round on them that hit (as they have to be physically hit for the reflection to work) will be done on the attacker instead. No persistence check, no reroll on the attack.
That seems pretty horrendous to me.

Am I getting something wrong here?

 

[Loz]

Nope, that's how its meant to work. If you read the story 'The Flamebringer' you'll see it in action, too.

But I think you're missing the point a little. It will render the caster immune to known attacks, but honestly, what opponent would be foolish enough to keep attacking when his attacks reverse? The spell is really a deterrent spell. You'd have to be pretty dense to continue making attack after attack if all you do is injure yourself. Once, and you should get the message.

And, the key is in knowing about the attack. Attacks from the rear or flank you may not be aware of and these will get through. Reflection won't protect you completely in an ambush, or from a concealed assassin's arrows, or even a stealthy assassin's knife as he creeps-up and slips it into your ribs.

 

[danskmacabre]

I do understand what you're saying, but let's say they'e up against a really powerful monster that could toast the entire party fairly easily.
A smart party will just send in one of them with reflection on them to taunt the big tough monster and it hits them with its best shot and might oneshot itself, at the cost of potentially just 1 magic point.

I do appreciate its in the novels, but I can see this easily being open to abuse tbh in an rpg.

Sure once the monster realises what's going on it won't attack, but what can it do but just let that character do what it wants?

I appreciate that there are spells like leech that could drain this spell, but sorcs in my campaign are pretty rare and it seems a bit of a cheat to suddenly say the leech spell is more common for opponents.

 

[danskmacabre]

And, the key is in knowing about the attack. Attacks from the rear or flank you may not be aware of and these will get through. Reflection won't protect you completely in an ambush, or from a concealed assassin's arrows, or even a stealthy assassin's knife as he creeps-up and slips it into your ribs.

Yeah see your point here, that is a weakness, but often sneaking up on someone in a party in the middle of a fight is very difficult.
But are you suggesting a rear or flank attack has a chance of surprising the character? Or are you saying the attacker must stealth up to them and get a flank attack?

 

[Loz]

I do appreciate its in the novels, but I can see this easily being open to abuse tbh in an rpg.

Then its up to you as GM to exercise some strict control over what runes are available in your campaign and how characters gain access to them.

I appreciate that there are spells like leech that could drain this spell, but sorcs in my campaign are pretty rare and it seems a bit of a cheat to suddenly say the leech spell is more common for opponents.

In the Elric novels - which is what this game models - sorcerers are far more than pretty rare: they're exceedingly rare, and what they know is a mere fragment of what they used to know.

If you feel a particular rune is unbalanced or unbalancing, restrict it and control it. Just because a rune is there in the rules does not mean it has to be used or made available to anyone who asks for it. The rune of reflection, in 'The Flamebringer' is one of Drinij Bara's more powerful magics and even Elric doesn't fully understand the magic of the Unknown East, where Bara comes from.

But are you suggesting a rear or flank attack has a chance of surprising the character? Or are you saying the attacker must stealth up to them and get a flank attack?

Up to you. But unless a character has eyes in the back of his head, how on earth is he going to be aware of everything going on behind him, especially if he's in the thick of a melee and gloating over all the front-facing opponents who've just had attacks reflected? If you're not aware of something you're naturally going to be surprised when it happens to you.

 

[danskmacabre]

Then its up to you as GM to exercise some strict control over what runes are available in your campaign and how characters gain access to them.

I see what you mean and I am thinking of restricting it a bit as follows:
non-directed effects will not be reflected, for example, a creature using a breath weapon in an area (as opposed to targeting the character) will not have the damage reflected.
If someone throws flame oil near the character and they happened to get caught in the splash, then also that won't get redirected.
Basically anything that isn't directly targeting the character for the purposes of injuring will not get reflected. Any area of effect things.

I'm THINKING of saying that another attack roll must be made back on the attacker using their own skill. so for example if warrior A (with 80% in warsword) hits defendant B (who has Reflection up), then Warrior A must roll an attack on himself at 80%.
I might even add an option to be able to evade this (but not parry).
But I will let the RAW stand for a while and see how it works out.

In the Elric novels - which is what this game models - sorcerers are far more than pretty rare: they're exceedingly rare, and what they know is a mere fragment of what they used to know.

Yes I agree, however in a gaming group, usually there's one player who wants to be a sorceror, so PCs tend to be the exception to the rule.
But in as far as NPCs out there in the YKs, I agree they're pretty rare.
Of course PCs tend to end up meeting exceedingly rare type beings anyway, being the nature of adventuring. Currently the PCs are trapped on a sort of Demi-plane being managed by Balo for entertainment for the Chaos lords.. heh.

If you feel a particular rune is unbalanced or unbalancing, restrict it and control it. Just because a rune is there in the rules does not mean it has to be used or made available to anyone who asks for it. The rune of reflection, in 'The Flamebringer' is one of Drinij Bara's more powerful magics and even Elric doesn't fully understand the magic of the Unknown East, where Bara comes from.

Yes that's true, it was a Mhyrryn character that is a Sorceror, so I let her choose her 3 runes as she wanted to use Rune magic.
She chose Reflection as one of them, which was when I had a closer look at Rune, it concerned me. but to be fair it hasn't actually been used in the game yet, so I will try it out for a bit.

Up to you. But unless a character has eyes in the back of his head, how on earth is he going to be aware of everything going on behind him, especially if he's in the thick of a melee and gloating over all the front-facing opponents who've just had attacks reflected? If you're not aware of something you're naturally going to be surprised when it happens to you.

Yes that's true, but is merely being aware of "Something" behind you enough to reflect the effect, or do you actually need Line of sight/ Directly looking at them to be able to reflect the attack?


Anyway, thanx for the feedback I really appreciate your input.
It's really nice to get comments from the person who actually created the game.

 

[DamonJynx]

Actually, there are a couple of things you can do/engineer to reduce its effectiveness:

• 1. Have minions attack the PC and the 'leaders' delay.
  2. An 'average' sorcerer probably has around 15 POW. After Pact dedication - a must IMO for sorcerers - of at least 5 POW that only leaves 10 POW available for Runes - that's not a lot if the PC is pumping 5 points into Reflection.
  3. It lasts an hour. Time your opponents attacks so that the Rune is inactive when thy attack. Then the PC has to spend valuable CA casting the Rune (1 per MP invested).
  4. Ambushes work great. That Demon I posted earlier with the Twin Shot ability is a good one to have lurking about (they take half damage from weapons not inscribed with the Rune of Law).
  5. As Loz pointed out, an assassin or some such sneaking up from behind is also good. If in combat and the PC with Reflection is engaged, the Perception check should be Difficult or Hard.
  6. Send a Demon with Absorbtion? ability against them - works for me.

Remember;
It's attacks per round, not per CA.
They have to be aware of the attack.
It must be a physical attack; if a sorcerer vocalises Dissolution and walks up to the PC after the fight in an unthreatening manner and offers to shake the PC's hand for rescuing them...you get the idea.

 

[danskmacabre]

Thanks for the ideas, although the duration thing, she has Reflection inscribed and put 3 MPs into it.

On reflection it will force me to be more creative in combat anyway, so it's not that bad, I will run with it for a while and see how it pans out.
It does worry me that she could just cast it on the whole party tho, but then she'll be out of MPs pretty much if she does that.

 

[DamonJynx]

Thanks for the ideas, although the duration thing, she has Reflection inscribed and put 3 MPs into it.

Where is it inscribed? If it's inscribed on armour, it only affects each piece of armour it's inscribed on - unless it is combined with the Rune of Man or Woman. Which means that an attack would have to hit that location.

 

[Loz]

Reflection is always best vocalised. As pointed out, inscribing it will localise its effects.

And it reflects physical attacks - those that impart force, either ranged or close quarters. You could rule that fire, splashes and so on, are unreflected because they're incidental and don't rely on velocity in a specific direction.

For those who are affected by Reflection: perhaps give them an Evade roll (at a CA cost) to avoid the blow. But play through the RAW first.

Akrasia, in my Elric campaign, has Reflection, and whilst its helped him a few times, its usefulness has been of limited value and he's certainly been on the receiving end of some successful attacks. So its not the deal-breaker it might seem.

 

[danskmacabre]

Where is it inscribed? If it's inscribed on armour, it only affects each piece of armour it's inscribed on - unless it is combined with the Rune of Man or Woman. Which means that an attack would have to hit that location.

Whoops! I missed that one. Good spot!

The Mhyrryn doesn't wear armor, but her clothing will be pieces for sure best case scenario is a tunic for Chest, Abdomen, arms is one.
Trousers for legs.
A Hat for Head.
So that means 3 castings.
Unless she vocalises of course, but then limited duration and recasting required.

 

[danskmacabre]

Reflection is always best vocalised. As pointed out, inscribing it will localise its effects.

Yeah, totally missed that one, whoops.
Think back I remember reading that localisation ruling before, but totally forgot it when investigating the Reflection rune.
Luckily that character has not actually used that rune yet anyway, so no big deal (The players first session last night, in fact the first time she's ever played an RPG).

And it reflects physical attacks - those that impart force, either ranged or close quarters. You could rule that fire, splashes and so on, are unreflected because they're incidental and don't rely on velocity in a specific direction.

Yeah been thinking of using a ruling like this and I will use this as it makes sense really.

For those who are affected by Reflection: perhaps give them an Evade roll (at a CA cost) to avoid the blow. But play through the RAW first.

Like you say, I'll try RAW at first and see how it pans out and if it seems overpowered, I'll implement this rule.

Akrasia, in my Elric campaign, has Reflection, and whilst its helped him a few times, its usefulness has been of limited value and he's certainly been on the receiving end of some successful attacks. So its not the deal-breaker it might seem.

Yeah need to play it out, will be quite interesting and encourage more creative GMing with this sort of rune around. heh.