chaos0xomega
Mongoose
As always, DM is at least 8 steps ahead of everyone else.
Dreadnought and Pre-dreadnought era
- Thread starter Ben2
- Start date
Thinking about PLs for WW1 there seem 2 schemes of PL (see below, with the ships typical of each PL) which could be used.
1.
Patrol - things like torpedo boats
Skirmish - light and medium cruisers
Raid - armoured and heavy cruisers
Battle - battlecruisers
War - dreadnoughts
"armageddon" - super dreadnoughts e.g. QE
This includes an extra uber ship PL level.
2.
Patrol - torpedo boats and light cruisers
Skirmish - armoured and heavy cruisers
Raid - battlecruisers
Battle - dreadnoughts
War - super dreadnoughts
This configeration avoids the super dread catagory and seems more akin to actual WW1 operations with raids being carried out by the battlecruisers and the dreadnoughts coming to the fore only in pitched battles.
In both cases I think the super dreadnoughts shoul be placed in a seperate top catagory. This is so that when it comes to choosing a fleet people don't automatically pick the uber dreadnoughts over their less uber cousins.
1.
Patrol - things like torpedo boats
Skirmish - light and medium cruisers
Raid - armoured and heavy cruisers
Battle - battlecruisers
War - dreadnoughts
"armageddon" - super dreadnoughts e.g. QE
This includes an extra uber ship PL level.
2.
Patrol - torpedo boats and light cruisers
Skirmish - armoured and heavy cruisers
Raid - battlecruisers
Battle - dreadnoughts
War - super dreadnoughts
This configeration avoids the super dread catagory and seems more akin to actual WW1 operations with raids being carried out by the battlecruisers and the dreadnoughts coming to the fore only in pitched battles.
In both cases I think the super dreadnoughts shoul be placed in a seperate top catagory. This is so that when it comes to choosing a fleet people don't automatically pick the uber dreadnoughts over their less uber cousins.
Nice to see you've surfaced again Oggie, doubtless looking forward to once again taking on myself, Simon, Beardy and the really quiet chap.
I'm getting the battle of matapan set and I will also pick up a couple more italian battleships and aircraft for both sides, so prepare for a big ass battle. Just got to paint and base the stuff.
But I'm also going to get some WWI gear and we can give that a go as well.
I'm getting the battle of matapan set and I will also pick up a couple more italian battleships and aircraft for both sides, so prepare for a big ass battle. Just got to paint and base the stuff.
But I'm also going to get some WWI gear and we can give that a go as well.
Happy_Wanderer
Mongoose
Glad to see there is plenty of interest in WW1 ops. This is the age of the battleship but includes many interesting tactical interactions with a myriad of pre-dreds and dreds, with submarine and air ops playing an important factor, though not stealing the limelight from the big fellas.
I'm curous - If you were to buy the WW1 version would you prefer the inclusion of a complete fleet list for the German and British navies or more along the lines of WW2 VaS with a number of ships for each nation, but no single nation complete which may be 'fleshed out' in a follow on book?
Cheers
HappyW
I'm curous - If you were to buy the WW1 version would you prefer the inclusion of a complete fleet list for the German and British navies or more along the lines of WW2 VaS with a number of ships for each nation, but no single nation complete which may be 'fleshed out' in a follow on book?
Cheers
HappyW
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
I'd want many nations and more tha just WW1, Russo-Japanese war, US-Spanish etc
I have models of all the battlecruisers for both the Royal Navy and High Seas Fleet that were at Jutland (well all those Brit ones with Beatty anyway).
I think Happy Wanderers idea for the WW1 VaS book would work as there are so many dreadnought designs, many of which are only very slightly different from one another e.g. KGV and Iron Duke classes. Navies that should be included in the book would have to be the Royal Navy, High Seas fleet, US Navy and the Imperial Japanese Navy.
The system seems very flexible so Penguin's ideas for using it with other should be possible. But those wars though significant I think could be easily covered by a series of S+P articles. But WW1 I would think needs its own book either a seperate rulebook or an expansion with:-
Ship stats
WW1 traits not covered in the WW2 VaS
etc
oggie x
I think Happy Wanderers idea for the WW1 VaS book would work as there are so many dreadnought designs, many of which are only very slightly different from one another e.g. KGV and Iron Duke classes. Navies that should be included in the book would have to be the Royal Navy, High Seas fleet, US Navy and the Imperial Japanese Navy.
The system seems very flexible so Penguin's ideas for using it with other should be possible. But those wars though significant I think could be easily covered by a series of S+P articles. But WW1 I would think needs its own book either a seperate rulebook or an expansion with:-
Ship stats
WW1 traits not covered in the WW2 VaS
etc
oggie x
I concur, the Austrian/Italian Naval race ended up with no really decisive battles and the Austrians maintaining a fleet in being and occasionally one side bombarding the others coastline. All the central powers navies should definitely be in it. The USN should be included along with the British, Italians and Russians for commercial reasons even if it did very little, and if you are going to do that adding the IJN isn't a huge stretch.
If Monggose are no longer as tied down by page restrictions as previously, I favour a book big enough to fit everything plus a set of historical scenarios, what ifs etc in rather than limiting it to one main book that covers some bases and then have people slavering for an expansion as is currently the situation.
And Oggie, are these ships in 1/6000 it looks like a lump of metal from over here and If I sneeze its a tropcal hurricane scale or 1/3000 Navwar. I'll be putting a Navwar order in next week, did you want anything?
If Monggose are no longer as tied down by page restrictions as previously, I favour a book big enough to fit everything plus a set of historical scenarios, what ifs etc in rather than limiting it to one main book that covers some bases and then have people slavering for an expansion as is currently the situation.
And Oggie, are these ships in 1/6000 it looks like a lump of metal from over here and If I sneeze its a tropcal hurricane scale or 1/3000 Navwar. I'll be putting a Navwar order in next week, did you want anything?
juggler69uk
Mongoose
in this thread on dreadnaughts / WW1 ???? in the what to publish next forum
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25117
Matt says this project is being worked on and to expect something later this year (top of second page)
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25117
Matt says this project is being worked on and to expect something later this year (top of second page)
chaos0xomega
Mongoose
Didn't the Portuguese have a rather powerful navy at the time?
Also, wren't the Japs heavily involved with the war, or at least had a fairly powerful fleet?
Also, wren't the Japs heavily involved with the war, or at least had a fairly powerful fleet?
They had a powerful fleet, and defeated the Germans at Tsingtao, as well as occupying the Germans colonial possessions in China (their declaration of war was preluded by the demand Germany cede her possessions in China). However Tsingtao was not a naval engagement, though naval forces did support ground troops landed by naval ships. A number of Japanese ships were transferred to the Western theatre, where one was lost in a torpedo attack, and which mostly operated in an ASW role from Malta. The Japaese also helped put down a mutiny in Singapore against the British.
The smaller navies can surely go into S+P. The main book should feature the larger navies at the time which have far more choice in terms of ships at various PLs.
Several US battleships were stationed as part of the Royal Navy Home fleet during WW1 so the US should be included.
Yes Ben they are 1/6000 and when I have a bit more time and dosh I am hoping to make both the Royal Navy and High Seas Fleet battlecruiser forces that were at Jutland in 1/6000. I found the orders of battle and the classes of most of the ships involved. There are a lot of destroyers!!
oggie x
Several US battleships were stationed as part of the Royal Navy Home fleet during WW1 so the US should be included.
Yes Ben they are 1/6000 and when I have a bit more time and dosh I am hoping to make both the Royal Navy and High Seas Fleet battlecruiser forces that were at Jutland in 1/6000. I found the orders of battle and the classes of most of the ships involved. There are a lot of destroyers!!
oggie x
Thats one idea. However, talking to some of my naval waragming chumsabout the scope of coverage they have suggested that they'd rather see the choice made on the basis of actual actions fought, which would tend to put some of the smaller navies further up the list. Of course MGP's ideas could be completely different 
juggler69uk
Mongoose
Could ????
You have to bear in mind concepts like marketing. Matt has about as good a grasp as marketing as its possible to have and still count as a human being. Which means he has to bear in mind the American market, which is large and full of Americans. Which means the American fleet goes in so they can relive their victory over the British at the battle of Trafalgar or whatever the Hollywood version of WWI is now.
Given the level of ignorance we have over here regarding the first world war (ie what started it etc) and Americans I've met who are surprised to learn that we were in the Second World war and on the same side as them, I can only imagine that non-wargamers and students of history have an even ropier idea of what happened in the first world war (ie Italians and Japanese on our side). Basically Matt knows people are more interested when their nation is in a wargame if it historically was involved even marginally. Think how many people you know who have Vicotry at Sea fleets for their country and their standard opponent (I have Royal navy and Kreigsmarine fleets, but will have one for every faction in the next month).
So there is probaby no way he will leave out the American navy in a WW1 supplement.
Given the level of ignorance we have over here regarding the first world war (ie what started it etc) and Americans I've met who are surprised to learn that we were in the Second World war and on the same side as them, I can only imagine that non-wargamers and students of history have an even ropier idea of what happened in the first world war (ie Italians and Japanese on our side). Basically Matt knows people are more interested when their nation is in a wargame if it historically was involved even marginally. Think how many people you know who have Vicotry at Sea fleets for their country and their standard opponent (I have Royal navy and Kreigsmarine fleets, but will have one for every faction in the next month).
So there is probaby no way he will leave out the American navy in a WW1 supplement.
Interestingly enough most of the players calling for minor navies are American.
Nationalism is of course a factor but not necessarily as important as you may think. Hence the interest in Naploeonics in the US and the American Civil War in the UK. also the forst volumes of the highly successful "Great War at Sea" series majored on the navies of Europe precisely because they were the major active fleets in WW1.
Nationalism is of course a factor but not necessarily as important as you may think. Hence the interest in Naploeonics in the US and the American Civil War in the UK. also the forst volumes of the highly successful "Great War at Sea" series majored on the navies of Europe precisely because they were the major active fleets in WW1.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Ben2 said:
I heard it started because some guy called Archie Duke was hungry so he shot an ostrich................... :wink:
chaos0xomega
Mongoose
No no, I heard it was because the Australian Army went to war with Emu's and were defeated, and then the Germans signed a treaty with the Emu's and the British responded because they saw the German-Emu alliance as an attempt to conquer the Australian continent in the name of a flightless bird(I'm talking about the Kaiser of course 
:wink: )
:wink: )emperorpenguin
Mongoose
I take it you've not seen "Blackadder Goes Forth" then? :wink:
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