Difficulty, Boon/Bane, and DMs

[vladthemad]

Alright, after giving the skill section a solid read, I've come to ask what the thought process was behind splitting the previous system from only dice modifiers into the three separate categories of difficulty, boon/bane, and dice modifiers? I'd like to hear from what other players think as well as from the authors.

The original mechanic was elegant in it's simplicity. The benefit of the original mechanic was that the referee could easily assign a negative or positive dice modifier based on the situation. Poor lighting while searching for someone? -2DM, fine quality tools while repairing the drive? +1DM, trying to force a square peg into a round hole? -4DM. It kept the pace of actual play very smooth and quick.

With the new mechanics of sorting everything into different categories based on perceived task difficulty, outside influence, and specific rules it seems like complexity is being added where it really isn't needed. The only real result my players and I could see was it would slow down game play at the table. On top of that, it invalidates all the previously released Traveller material that was written to the previous system.

While at first glance I thought it was an interesting mechanic, after some discussion with my players we are wondering why it's needed. We all agree that it seems like complexity is being added without real benefit. I'm all for fixing what was broken before, but the task system was one of the things that worked very well.

Perhaps the boon/bane mechanic is something that belongs more in the Traveller Companion book and not the core rule book?

 

[TrippyHippy]

To be honest, I am wondering the same thing. For me, if I can't work out the impact of probabilities in dice rolls on the fly, I tend to regard things as a more complex ruling.

 

[Rockymountainnavy]

To be honest, I am wondering the same thing. For me, if I can't work out the impact of probabilities in dice rolls on the fly, I tend to regard things as a more complex ruling.

If you look at Shawn's chart at http://shawndriscollrpg.blogspot.com/2012/10/an-alternate-die-roll-for-traveller.html then Boon/Bane seems to be not much different than a DM+2/DM-2.

"Boon" appears 21 times in the rules. "Bane" appears 38 times. There are literally hundreds of DMs in the rules. Boon/Bane seem to be used mostly for environmental factors, changing timeframes, and damage effects. What does it do that a DM can't?

Using the RAW, Boon/Bane comes across as an extra mechanic that unnecessarily adds complexity to the Core Mechanic.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

If you look at Shawn's chart at http://shawndriscollrpg.blogspot.com/2012/10/an-alternate-die-roll-for-traveller.html then Boon/Bane seems to be not much different than a DM+2/DM-2.

A DM -2/-2 chart looks nothing like a Boon/Bane chart. Two totally different things. They are not substitutes for each other. One is a DM to a roll. The other is a different kind of roll. Not a 2D roll.

 

[-Daniel-]

Perhaps the boon/bane mechanic is something that belongs more in the Traveller Companion book and not the core rule book?

This is how I felt after reading it and thinking about it and reading the various comments. It seems like a rule/mechanic that should be an option offered in the Traveller Companion book rather than something bolted onto the core mechanic.

 

[vladthemad]

A DM -2/-2 chart looks nothing like a Boon/Bane chart. Two totally different things. They are not substitutes for each other. One is a DM to a roll. The other is a different kind of roll. Not a 2D roll.

I think you're missing the point he's trying to make.

 

[Rockymountainnavy]

The more I consider it, I see Boon/Bane having four uses; three very specific and one more nebulous.

1. When changing Timeframes (p. 60)
2. When there are no relevant DMs to describe the exterior effect (requires an reinterpretation of p. 61)
3. When determining Initiative in Ambushes (p. 70)
4. When describing Damage Effects (like the Critical Hit Effects Table, p. 159)

Where Boon/Bane is currently used in the rules outside of these conditions, they should be redefined as DMs (like Vargr Heightened Senses p. 50 or Weather p. 78).

For example, Traveller with Electronics (Sensors) 2 is attempting to make a detailed sensor scan of a planet that is suffering a nuclear winter.

As defined on p. 64, Making a Detailed Sensor Scan is an Average (8+) Electronics (sensors) check (1D x 10 minutes, INT or EDU). There are no "hard-wired" DMs defined the rules to show the exterior effect of the nuclear winter on the sensors. Unless the referee is going to redefine the Task Difficulty, the only other option the referee has is to use the Boon/Bane mechanic. In this case, as referee I would apply a Bane (3D-Low).

Or this example: A Traveller with Profession (Belter) returns to is homeworld (conveniently, he was born a Belter) to make money. Under Profession (p.68) he makes a Profession check to earn money. Per Task Difficulties, when "no difficulty is listed for a check, you can always assume it is Average (8+)" (p. 59). There are no "hard-wired" DMs. As a referee, I would apply a Boon (3D-High) to show the positive effect of being a ""hometown boy."

I think Boon/Bane will be used less often when the Referee sets the Task Difficulty (and putting aside the "always assume it is Average" from p. 59). I can imagine a scenario where the referee sets a Task Difficulty and there are no "hard-wired" DMs. As the player "role plays" a great idea comes up that could affect the check in a way the referee had not thought of. In return for the great role playing, the referee awards a Boon to the check.

 

[vladthemad]

Which brings us back to the original question, does it serve a useful purpose that the original mechanic does not and should it be a core rule mechanic? The original task mechanic allowed you to prescribe DMs regarding these situations, and as you pointed out previously it's effectively the same as giving them a +2/-2 DM.

 

[Rockymountainnavy]

Which brings us back to the original question, does it serve a useful purpose that the original mechanic does not and should it be a core rule mechanic? The original task mechanic allowed you to prescribe DMs regarding these situations, and as you pointed out previously it's effectively the same as giving them a +2/-2 DM.

Yes, for the reasons Shawn has given, and if the use can be clearly defined.

I now see that DM+2 is different from Boon. The possible results of DM+2 is 4-14. With a Core Mechanic that depends on Effect this is significant. For an Average check it means the range of Effect is -4 to +6. [There is a similar difference for DM-2 with results from -2 to 10]

With Boon, the range of results is still 2-12 but the chances of getting higher results is better. Likewise, Bane still has results 2-12 but weighted towards the lower end. The range of Effect stays the same, but it too get weighted one way or the other.

The difference is subtle but intriguing to me. I think it is worthy of keeping, IF the uses can be clearly defined. I could live with the four uses I posted above.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

2D/Boon/Bane are die rolls. Not die modifiers. Not difficulties or target numbers.

So simple to master, yet hard to understand apparently.

A new video is up showing the graphs. If anyone here is a graphs person.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmMRrvTTuqs

This was not the rule I thought would go viral. Maybe that is a good thing.

 

[VenomousFiligree]

Here's a graph I produced for showing the effects of varying numbers of penalty/bonus dice for BoL. Granted it is for a target number of 9 rather than 8, however it should give an idea of how a boon/bane roll compares to a DM. What the graph doesn't really show is that they also adjust the probabilities of a natural 2/12 occurring, however this isn't really an issue in Traveller (from what I've seen so far).

 

[vladthemad]

I now see that DM+2 is different from Boon. The possible results of DM+2 is 4-14. With a Core Mechanic that depends on Effect this is significant. For an Average check it means the range of Effect is -4 to +6. [There is a similar difference for DM-2 with results from -2 to 10]

Hmm...you make an interesting point, I hadn't seen mention of the differences the two systems have on Effect, and it is something I hadn't considered.

2D/Boon/Bane are die rolls. Not die modifiers. Not difficulties or target numbers.

So simple to master, yet hard to understand apparently.

Shawn, you seem to again be missing the point I am making. I understand very well how the mechanic works, and this isn't just about the boon/bane mechanic. It's about the changes made to the task system in their entirety. In the old system, you had one simple system that covered everything involved in task checks, the dice modifier. Dice modifiers covered difficulty, situational modifiers, and just about anything else you could possibly throw at it. In the new system, you have it broken up into three distinct linked mechanics; dice modifiers, difficulty, and boon/bane.

The question isn't how does it work, the question is what value is gained by adding complexity to what was already a very functional and smooth system?

 

[Stainless]

Rolling 2D gives you an approximated bell curve (a distribution). Using die modifies move the distribution left or right but doesn't change the shape (i.e., it still remains a symmetrical bell curve).

I don't know if the Boon/Bane does the same (just moves the distribution) or actually changes the shape of the distribution (from a symmetrical bell to a left/right skewed). If it does that, then it is indeed distinct from a DM mechanism.

If Boon/Bane makes no difference to the distribution, then what it adds is another layer of uncertainty to rolls; The DM the extra die adds is variable from 0 to +/-5 (I think).

So it strikes me that DMs should be used for known factors (you skill, ability, quality of equipment, etc.) whilst Boon/Bane should be used for unknown/unpredictable variables (the vagaries of the wind, the chance a pedestrian might walk out into the road during a chase, etc.). Perhaps in play with a little experience it will become instinctive when to use or not use it.

Edit: Having just seen Shawn's blog post it looks like the Boon/Bane does indeed skew the distribution. I'd have to say I prefer that as a poisson distribution has been known for very many years to be a better description of many (most?) real world occurrences.

 

[Cugel]

This could very easily be clarified: just insert a table showing the probabilities with and without Boon or Bane, by difficulty numbers.

 

[TrippyHippy]

This is exactly what I'd want. A simple table with difficulties set against % chances of success for straight rolls, then boon and bane rolls respectively.

A referee needs to know the statistical impact of a boon/bane roll in clear terms, as well as having more specific language as to when they should be applied.

 

[Kaelic]

Here are the chances assuming no DM.

Boon
Simple | 2+ | 100.00%
Easy | 4+ | 98.15%
Routine | 6+ | 89.35%
Average | 8+ | 68.06%
Difficult | 10+ | 35.65%
Very Difficult | 12+ | 7.51%
Formidable | 14+ | 0.00%

Bane
Simple | 2+ | 100.00%
Easy | 4+ | 80.09%
Routine | 6+ | 47.69%
Average | 8+ | 19.44%
Difficult | 10+ | 5.09%
Very Difficult | 12+ | 0.46%
Formidable | 14+ | 0.00%

Standard
Simple | 2+ | 100.00%
Easy | 4+ | 91.67%
Routine | 6+ | 72.22%
Average | 8+ | 41.67%
Difficult | 10+ | 16.67%
Very Difficult | 12+ | 2.78%
Formidable | 14+ | 0.00%

 

[TrippyHippy]

Excellent!

Include this data in a table and I'm half-way happy towards the inclusion of Boon/Bane rolls.

The next bit is to playtest them in action.....

 

[-Daniel-]

Wow, that is some significant impacts. Thanks Kaelic.

 

[vladthemad]

Alright, that's all fine and good, but the question isn't "How does it work?"; the question is "Is it necessary?" Using Kaelic's provided tables and a little copy pasta....

Boon vs. +2 DM
| 2+ | 100.00% 100.00%
| 4+ | 98.15% 100.00%
| 6+ | 89.35% 91.67%
| 8+ | 68.06% 72.22%
| 10+ | 35.65% 41.67%
| 12+ | 7.51% 16.67%
| 14+ | 0.00% 2.78%

Bane vs. -2 DM
| 2+ | 100.00% 91.67%
| 4+ | 80.09% 72.22%
| 6+ | 47.69% 41.67%
| 8+ | 19.44% 16.67%
| 10+ | 5.09% 2.78%
| 12+ | 0.46% 0.00%
| 14+ | 0.00% 0.00%

As you can see, the difference is pretty insignificant except at the extreme ends of the table...and even then it seems to favor the DM system. So again I ask, why add complexity to the core rule mechanic when there is no significant gain from it? I don't think it's a bad mechanic, I just think it would be better served in the optional rules supplement that's scheduled to follow the core rule book.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

2D, Boon, and Bane are die rolls. They are not DMs to die rolls. Huge difference once you understand how die mechanics work in Traveller.