Difficulty, Boon/Bane, and DMs

[grauenwolf]

The way I see it, DMs are for common scenarios and boon/bane are for the weird cases where figuring out the correct DM would be too time consuming.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Alright, that's all fine and good, but the question isn't "How does it work?"; the question is "Is it necessary?" Using Kaelic's provided tables and a little copy pasta....

Boon vs. +2 DM
| 2+ | 100.00% 100.00%
| 4+ | 98.15% 100.00%
| 6+ | 89.35% 91.67%
| 8+ | 68.06% 72.22%
| 10+ | 35.65% 41.67%
| 12+ | 7.51% 16.67%
| 14+ | 0.00% 2.78%

Bane vs. -2 DM
| 2+ | 100.00% 91.67%
| 4+ | 80.09% 72.22%
| 6+ | 47.69% 41.67%
| 8+ | 19.44% 16.67%
| 10+ | 5.09% 2.78%
| 12+ | 0.46% 0.00%
| 14+ | 0.00% 0.00%

As you can see, the difference is pretty insignificant except at the extreme ends of the table...and even then it seems to favor the DM system. So again I ask, why add complexity to the core rule mechanic when there is no significant gain from it? I don't think it's a bad mechanic, I just think it would be better served in the optional rules supplement that's scheduled to follow the core rule book.

The main statistical difference is that a DM increases the range beyond 2 or 12 respectively. However, there is also an immeasurable qualitative difference about how it feels around the game table. Is it fun to implement or not? I'll report back about that after I've tried it out on Thursday night...

 

[anselyn]

The main statistical difference is that a DM increases the range beyond 2 or 12 respectively. However, there is also an immeasurable qualitative difference about how it feels around the game table. Is it fun to implement or not? I'll report back about that after I've tried it out on Thursday night...

I agree that the feel of the mechanic in action is important. Even with a boon there's still that chance that 1,1,1, will come up on the dice and that gives a tension to the roll that's different from changing the difficulty or giving a DM.

However, given that roughly speaking that boon/bane is like a DM of +/-2 it seems odd to me to combine this with such a finely grained difficulty table with steps of two on the target number. Going back to MegaTraveller the steps were Simple (3+), Routine (7+), Difficult (11+) and Formidable (11=). Steps up of four, with clear conceptual jumps in difficulty seems good to me. A Routine task compared to an Average task seems a less obvious decision to me. Difficult vs Very Difficult isn't very elegant. What would a novice Ref make of this - these decisions.

I think boon/bane with bigger gradations in task difficulty would be better. Steps of 4 are difficult if we're now wedded to 8 as the best default TN. So I suggest that steps of three are a good compromise.
Simple/Trivial 2+
Easy 5+
Routine 8+
Difficult 11+
Formidable 14+

 

[-Daniel-]

The more I play around with Boon and Bane I keep thinking the situation I plan as a GM will be assigned a difficulty. Say Average STR 8+. Then I will use the Bane or Boon when the characters do something out side the normal for the situation. Like buy a special tool or wait until dark and forget a flashlight. The task didn't change, but the dark does add a bane. It is flowing better when I think about it that way.

 

[Kaelic]

The more I play around with Boon and Bane I keep thinking the situation I plan as a GM will be assigned a difficulty. Say Average STR 8+. Then I will use the Bane or Boon when the characters do something out side the normal for the situation. Like buy a special tool or wait until dark and forget a flashlight. The task didn't change, but the dark does add a bane. It is flowing better when I think about it that way.

I agree with this. Standard difficulties seem like a good baseline but I intend to set them as I feel, and I still like Bane/Boon as a fun mod. And remember, Bane/Boon adds excitement to the player, because you gain those extreme results that Traveller typically lacks.

To vladthemad, I'd say something like that would fit your needs. You want to add more mods, just roll it into the difficulty you assign and hide it from the players. Treat Bane and Boon as random occurrence rather than inherent difficulty/ease.

Fixing the J-Drive in the Dark, Difficult
Fixing the J-Drive in the Dark and Zero G, Very Difficult
Fixing the J-Drive in the Dark and Zero G with debris flying around, Very Difficult with Bane.

See what I mean?

As for the rules, I personally feel it should say difficulty is your choice, rather than standardised to the task. Perhaps my idea of Bane and Boon suits the rules better, what do people think?

 

[vladthemad]

I guess our issue is with it being part of the main mechanic when we don't see much in the way of value being added. It's also the prominent mechanic of other game systems, and seems borrowed and tacked on. Most successful systems go with one main mechanic, not multiple special case mechanics. There's something to be said for keeping it simple. Try playing the original Rolemaster or Phoenix Command. They will show you why you should opt for less complexity!

With the old rules there was one mechanic, the DM. You rolled your dice, applied your DM, and if it was equal to or greater than eight you succeeded. Now you have variable target numbers based on difficulty, you still have DMs, and boons/banes. It's a lot more for new players and referees alike to juggle and understand, it will slow things down at the game table for them, and statistically it's about the same as a +/-2 DM in the old system.

It's not that my players and I don't like the mechanic in and of itself. I'd be fine with it as an optional rule. In game play the previous system flowed very quickly at the table because it was simple to understand and make judgements off the cuff. That was a great asset, it was easy to explain and even easier to use. My players and I have monkeyed around with the new system a bit, and we aren't really seeing much value being added by it.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

As for the rules, I personally feel it should say difficulty is your choice, rather than standardised to the task.

You're leaving the difficulties as they are described in the rules for each skill? If it says Average (8+) for a skill, it will always be that? Maybe I didn't understand you.

 

[NOLATrav]

Certainly I could be wrong but I think the idea is that the basic difficulty of a task should be plot/story driven - so the ref/author assigns difficulties based on that... Essentially, easier in the early part of the adventure, harder as the characters approach their goal. So following the clues to the middle man will be Routine to Average, getting the next several pieces of info will be Average to Difficult and getting the final piece of the puzzle will be Very Difficult or Formidable. Within that, there should be DMs captured/discovered along the way to keep the group from going down a rathole and red herrings to make sure that they do.

Or something like that.

Boon and Bane are things the ref didn't expect or think of, things that developed from previous player and NPC actions, or even rewards and penalties for good or bad role playing. Weather, public outcry, playing out a character flaw even when it's detrimental, NPC showing up with reinforcements... That sort of thing.

I guess that's a cinematic view of things. YMMV

 

[Kaelic]

As for the rules, I personally feel it should say difficulty is your choice, rather than standardised to the task.

You're leaving the difficulties as they are described in the rules for each skill? If it says Average (8+) for a skill, it will always be that? Maybe I didn't understand you.

No, you didn't understand me.

 

[Bense]

The primary mechanical value of Boon and Bane that I see is that they make tasks easier or harder without changing the margin of success that the Traveller can achieve. Change a Difficult task to Average for a character with a +3 DM (from characteristics and skills) and you've also changed his maximum margin of success from 5 to 7. You have just made it possible for him to achieve an exceptional success with his roll. Give him a Boon and you've made the task easier while still holding him to a maximum margin of success of 5.
If you changed a Difficult task to Very Difficult, a Traveller with a +3 DM can still scrape out a success, but his maximum margin of success dropped to 3, and he might fail by as much as 7. Keep it at Difficult but give him a Bane and the task becomes more difficult, but he can still get a margin of 5 success and will only get down to -5 failure. Bane in that case allows the task to be more difficult without making an exceptional failure possible.

 

[Bense]

The secondary benefit is that it allows a little bargaining between Referee and player. The Ref can set a task difficulty and the player can say "well what if I do this" and the Referee can then say "well that will get you a Boon." The player gets to feel he's been clever and negotiated a better chance for what he was trying to do, feels like his actions are affecting his chances of success and is happier even if he fails. Players may even pay more attention to the situation and try to figure out clever ways to wrangle themselves a Boon, and more player involvement is always a good thing in my experience.
Likewise the Ref can set a difficulty and then decide he wants it to be slightly tougher or didn't consider all the factors and add a Bane without saying "okay, so I didn't set that difficulty high enough the first time," which tends to break the flow of action in a game.
It's another tool in the Referee's arsenal, and it looks like a useful one to me.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Bense, I really like your explanations and think that these are the best reasons of all to keep the Boon/Bane thing. Even if it falls out of the book, I will keep it as a House Rule.

Very Nice.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Bense gets it.

 

[allanimal]

For those that want tables and charts...

http://anydice.com

Try the following:

Bane roll: http://anydice.com/program/2955
Boon roll: http://anydice.com/program/697d
Normal roll: http://anydice.com/program/4a0e

You can get all kinds of cool tables and graphs...

Edit: add links to each distribution

 

[Cugel]

However, given that roughly speaking that boon/bane is like a DM of +/-2 it seems odd to me to combine this with such a finely grained difficulty table with steps of two on the target number. Going back to MegaTraveller the steps were Simple (3+), Routine (7+), Difficult (11+) and Formidable (11=). Steps up of four, with clear conceptual jumps in difficulty seems good to me. A Routine task compared to an Average task seems a less obvious decision to me. Difficult vs Very Difficult isn't very elegant. What would a novice Ref make of this - these decisions.

I think boon/bane with bigger gradations in task difficulty would be better. Steps of 4 are difficult if we're now wedded to 8 as the best default TN. So I suggest that steps of three are a good compromise.
Simple/Trivial 2+
Easy 5+
Routine 8+
Difficult 11+
Formidable 14+

This would also match Characteristic bonus thresholds of 3 (9, 12, 15, etc. Or 9, C, F as I prefer).

 

[Nerhesi]

Keep in mind that in some cases, a boon or a bane is superfluous, and in all cases, they are completely random. The effect of a bane or a boon, at best, is to switch a 1 with 6 or vice versa, thereby being at most a +/-5 modifier.

This means the bane or boon modifiers are not indicative of the effect of skill - they are a completely random swing, unlike for example someone dodging, or fixing an engine or so.

This also means, on their own, a bane or boon may do absolutely nothing. If the roll is particularly difficult or sufficient easy, banes and boons dont matter because they do not have an absolute value and do not stack.

What this essentially means is that a bane or boon is tertiary affect to the operation in question. Example using average values)

I'm trying to shoot someone. Skill based. Gun Combat (+5)
That person doesn't want to be shot. That is based on their ability to dodge, a DM modifier of -2 (correctly so).
That person is so intent on not being shot, that they are also using cover, a DM modifier -2 (correctly so).
Now if I get an itch, or there is some sandstorm or something, thats when the Bane makes sense.

If we had basically said dodging is a bane, and cover is a bane, then regardless of how skilled the person dodging is, or how good the cover is, and of the sandstorm happening and and and etc.. the shot would still be trivial. (Obviously this isn't RAW - but just using the example of when Banes/Boons run into trouble, and how D20/DnD is different because of the larger dice range, where a +5 on a d20 trying to get a 15+, is not the forgone conclusion that +5 on a 2d6 trying to get an 8+ is)

 

[vladthemad]

2D, Boon, and Bane are die rolls. They are not DMs to die rolls. Huge difference once you understand how die mechanics work in Traveller.

As the charts I posted earlier show, the difference is actually relatively small, but thanks for again assuming someone doesn't understand something without reference or explanation. Quit being a Steve.

What this essentially means is that a bane or boon is tertiary affect to the operation in question.

Which is exactly why it should be an optional rule, not a main game mechanic. Everyone seems to feel a need to try and explain how they work, that's not what I'm trying to get at here. I'm not saying it's a bad mechanic, I just haven't seen any argument as to why it's required. If it's not required, why have it at all? The rules have a number of specific examples given for it, which means that much more to remember. I understand the mechanics behind the rule just fine. I'm interested in why it was broken down from the very simple and fast flowing die roll+DMs≥8 rule to the more complicated and in my eyes convoluted die roll+boon/bane+DMs≥difficulty. From a table standpoint, the previous system was easy to use, the referee came up with DMs to fit any specifics as needed or as the rules specified and play continued on. Now, play can break down while what constitutes a DM, a boon/bane, or requires a change in difficulty is discussed.

 

[Cugel]

[

What this essentially means is that a bane or boon is tertiary affect to the operation in question.

Which is exactly why it should be an optional rule, not a main game mechanic. Everyone seems to feel a need to try and explain how they work, that's not what I'm trying to get at here. I'm not saying it's a bad mechanic, I just haven't seen any argument as to why it's required. If it's not required, why have it at all? The rules have a number of specific examples given for it, which means that much more to remember. I understand the mechanics behind the rule just fine. I'm interested in why it was broken down from the very simple and fast flowing die roll+DMs≥8 rule to the more complicated and in my eyes convoluted die roll+boon/bane+DMs≥difficulty. From a table standpoint, the previous system was easy to use, the referee came up with DMs to fit any specifics as needed or as the rules specified and play continued on. Now, play can break down while what constitutes a DM, a boon/bane, or requires a change in difficulty is discussed.

I see, and agree with you partially: I like the mechanic, but used it simply in the chain of "Set difficulty, no modifiers aside from potential Boon or Bane". I must have subconsciously ignored the "add mods" step, and think either it or Boon/Bane should be in the task chain, not both. But I recognize I run fast and loose, to keep the game moving. :lol:

 

[TrippyHippy]

Final word from me on the matter of boon/bane dice:

So long as the probabilities for rolling target numbers for each type of roll (bane/boon & normal)are provided in a table somewhere, I am happy with the way they work around the game table.

I've tried it in actual session play, and they are an intuitive and fun addition.

 

[Colgrevance]

I now see that DM+2 is different from Boon. The possible results of DM+2 is 4-14. With a Core Mechanic that depends on Effect this is significant. For an Average check it means the range of Effect is -4 to +6. [There is a similar difference for DM-2 with results from -2 to 10]

With Boon, the range of results is still 2-12 but the chances of getting higher results is better. Likewise, Bane still has results 2-12 but weighted towards the lower end. The range of Effect stays the same, but it too get weighted one way or the other.

If I get down to an average task and have some favorable tools etc. that give me a bonus, that should not only make it more likely to succeed at the task, but also that I am able to succeed to a greater degree (or cannot fail as badly).

So in my eyes, this would be an advantage for the DM system, as compared to boon/bane rolls.