Difficulty, Boon/Bane, and DMs

[TrippyHippy]

The use of boon/bane allows a referee to adjust the difficulty of a task, without affecting the range of success/failure. This is why it is useful.

For example, if you had a man trying to fix a car in bad weather and simulated this by a -2DM then it would mean that the Effect of the roll would be limited accordingly too. This isn't realistic - a good professional ought to be able to operate with the disadvantage of bad weather, but still be able to produce a full range of effect. The bane roll allows this, in this circumstance.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

A -DM to a roll: "A task just got harder."

A Bane roll: "More work might be required."

A Boon roll: "Might be easier than it looks."

A +DM to a roll: "An easier way to do a task."

 

[Colgrevance]

For example, if you had a man trying to fix a car in bad weather and simulated this by a -2DM then it would mean that the Effect of the roll would be limited accordingly too. This isn't realistic - a good professional ought to be able to operate with the disadvantage of bad weather, but still be able to produce a full range of effect.

And to this I disagree - if there are adverse conditions, the probability should be higher that even a professional totally botches the job, and he most likely will not get as good an outcome as usual (in the same time span), which is quite nicely simulated by the larger degree of failure due to DM.

You could say 'but this is simulated by increased difficulty, not bane rolls' - but then it needs to be specified more clearly when exactly a bane roll should be used, and when a difficulty adjustment. I have seen some good suggestions above, but am not (yet) convinced there actually are situations in which success probability, but not effect, should be modified.

 

[TrippyHippy]

For example, if you had a man trying to fix a car in bad weather and simulated this by a -2DM then it would mean that the Effect of the roll would be limited accordingly too. This isn't realistic - a good professional ought to be able to operate with the disadvantage of bad weather, but still be able to produce a full range of effect.

And to this I disagree - if there are adverse conditions, the probability should be higher that even a professional totally botches the job, and he most likely will not get as good an outcome as usual (in the same time span), which is quite nicely simulated by the larger degree of failure due to DM.

You could say 'but this is simulated by increased difficulty, not bane rolls' - but then it needs to be specified more clearly when exactly a bane roll should be used, and when a difficulty adjustment. I have seen some good suggestions above, but am not (yet) convinced there actually are situations in which success probability, but not effect, should be modified.

If the task is 'fix the car' then the difficulty of fixing it is based on doing [X, Y and Z] to the car so that it works again properly. Bad weather is an outside condition and, although it may be a distraction, it does not affect the need to meet the goal of doing [X, Y and Z] to the car to make it work fully.

A bane roll simulates this perfectly because [X, Y and Z] are still perfectly attainable, but your work quality is weighted downwards because of the bad weather distraction. You have an increased chance of botching because your chances are weighted negatively, but they remain within your characters range of competency.

However, a negative DM means that only [X and Y] can possibly be achieved. [Z] is out of reach and it is not possible to fully fix the car, while you are not only likely to roll low but below your normal range of competence. This is not realistic.

 

[Colgrevance]

However, a negative DM means that only [X and Y] can possibly be achieved. [Z] is out of reach and it is not possible to fully fix the car, while you are not only likely to roll low but below your normal range of competence. This is not realistic.

ok, I think you have a point concerning weather conditions.

But what about tools? In my experience, you can actually do better with quality equipment at your disposal (compared to shoddy ones or none at all) - boon or DM?

edit: just playing devil's advocate here - but I do think that MgT loses something of its simple elegance by introducing three different mechanisms that influence task checks (difficulty, DMs, boon/bane), and I do not find their application intuitive as the rules stand now.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Then as the GM, you can say that using High Tech, High Quality tools is a DM+ not a Boon.

BUT, that may not be the case in every situation.

THEN AGAIN...

Look at what you just said in the context of Accomplishing X, Y and Z to fix the groundcar.

Having High quality vs Low Quality tools will not allow to fix MORE, it will just make your job easier. If the tools are the same (serve the same function, but not "one has a torque wrench and the other doesn't), then you can't do MORE or LESS with the High Quality tools, you can only get the job done faster/easier/with less effort. That is a BOON, not a DM.

So I would argue that having the tools, is a DM (defines what can and can't be done) and having high quality tools is a Boon (doesn't let you do anything more, just easier).

 

[-Daniel-]

Over on the Vargr thread Shawn shared the idea that DMs would only be used if specifically stated in a rule. No more ad hoc DM application. In that case, the difficulty and Boon or Bane become the primary mechanic for task adjustment. If that is the case and the rules can be cleaned up to clarify that, then the balance between the difficulty and the boon/bane is easier to find. Or at least I believe it will be.

 

[paulsnow]

edit: just playing devil's advocate here - but I do think that MgT loses something of its simple elegance by introducing three different mechanisms that influence task checks (difficulty, DMs, boon/bane), and I do not find their application intuitive as the rules stand now.

I agree. Let's avoid complication - but boon/bane is now well defined:
"The use of boon/bane allows a referee to adjust the difficulty of a task, without affecting the range of success/failure."

I suggest what we want to do is to get rid of is as many DMs as possible and use changes in difficulty instead. D&D used dis/advantage to remove lots of piddly little modifiers. Let's do the same here.
Compare:
Any ground vehicle going off-road will suffer DM-2 to all checks to control it and its maximum speed is reduced by two Speed Bands.
and
The Drive check to control any ground vehicle going off-road is increased by one difficulty level and the vehicle's maximum speed is reduced by two Speed Bands.

Given the fine-grained (to me) steps in difficulty level then as many modifiers as possible should be subsumed into changes in difficulty level.

 

[-Daniel-]

I suggest what we want to do is to get rid of is as many DMs as possible and use changes in difficulty instead.

Isn't that what will happen if the only DMs are those called out in specific rules and all Ad Hoc DMs are eliminated?

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Using that idea, then the only time you would need to use a fixed DM number would be if you were going to introduce an ODD number at the DM, such as the Unskilled modifier (DM-3).

I LIKE that. So DMs become fewer and the idea of shifting the difficulty level becomes the main way that a Referee can adjust the task chances with the Boon/Bane mechanism addressing the unforseen things that don't necessary affect what CAN be done, just out easily it can be done.

ME LIKEY A LOT

 

[Colgrevance]

So I would argue that having the tools, is a DM (defines what can and can't be done) and having high quality tools is a Boon (doesn't let you do anything more, just easier).

I like that interpretation for tasks where only binary outcomes are relevant or there is a clear ceiling to what you can achieve (as in the car example - I either fix it or not).

For tasks where the degree of success matters more, I am not yet convinced - as a GM, I like to judge how good a pc has succeeded, e.g. at creating a painting, by looking at the effect of the roll, and advantageous circumstances should make better outcomes possible, in my opinion.

I have to agree this is not a central problem for the task resolution system, though.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Agreed, Effect is still important.

The DM determines the Effect. Boon/Bane does not change the Effect, only the chances of getting a very high/low Effect. You can still get Effect +6 (Critical Hit) but it is more or less likely with a Boon/Bane. A DM might eliminate the possibility of an Effect +6 (Critical Hit).

I see where they both have their uses.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

But what about tools? In my experience, you can actually do better with quality equipment at your disposal (compared to shoddy ones or none at all) - boon or DM?

+/- DMs are hard-wired into the equipment you use. DMs are only applied to rolls when rules state to do so. Gone are the days when referees just +/- DMs hilly nilly to rolls. Referees only concern themselves now with Difficulty target numbers, using Bane or Boon rolls instead of 2D rolls, and (most importantly) what the Effect is.

If that isn't clearly explained in the book, it needs to be made so.

D&D used dis/advantage to remove lots of piddly little modifiers. Let's do the same here.

D&D's D/A use is nothing like MgT2's B/B use. Two totally different mechanics.

Given the fine-grained (to me) steps in difficulty level then as many modifiers as possible should be subsumed into changes in difficulty level.

Not possible. Difficulty is determined first before any DMs (which alter the level of difficulty, in a sense) can be applied. You remove the DMs... now you have to solve for difficulty before you see any equation yet. Difficulty is not an equation, but a known variable for one.

roll + DMs - Difficulty = Effect

 

[anselyn]

Using that idea, then the only time you would need to use a fixed DM number would be if you were going to introduce an ODD number at the DM, such as the Unskilled modifier (DM-3).

I think that the ODD number DMs can also be examined for their necessity.

• Laser Sight: +1 if Aiming - or 1 difficulty level easier?
  
  Unskilled: DM:-3 or two difficulty levels harder? (and Jack-o-T is useful up to level 4).

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Unskilled: DM:-3 or two difficulty levels harder? (and Jack-o-T is useful up to level 4).

"There is no benefit for having Jack-of-All-Trades 0 or Jack-of-All-Trades 4 or more."

 

[anselyn]

+/- DMs are hard-wired into the equipment you use.

You are aware that this equipment is largely imaginary? We can define it as we want and the playtest is about how to best achieve the game we want.

DMs are only applied to rolls when rules state to do so. Gone are the days when referees just +/- DMs hilly nilly to rolls.

After all your posts about Traveller Rule Zero, I'm pleased to see that you've come around to playtesting rules-as-written.

Referees only concern themselves now with Difficulty target numbers, using Bane or Boon rolls instead of 2D rolls, and (most importantly) what the Effect is. If that isn't clearly explained in the book, it needs to be made so.

I agree - get rid of those DMs and it will be true.

D&D used dis/advantage to remove lots of piddly little modifiers. Let's do the same here.

D&D's D/A use is nothing like MgT2's B/B use. Two totally different mechanics.

You must have a different usage of the term "mechanic" compared to the rest of the gaming community. "Roll an extra die - take the best/worst result - from discarding the result on one die". That exactly describes the advantage/disadvantage and boon/bane mechanic.

The base description for the Basic D&D rules is below.

D&D Basic rules: "Advantage and Disadvantage. Sometimes an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw is modified by special situations called advantage and disadvantage. Advantage reflects the positive circumstances surrounding a d20 roll, while disadvantage reflects the opposite."
[later]
"The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a result"

Uses include having inappropriate equipment (sneaking in heavy armour) and racial traits(lucky halflings). Sound familiar? Your internalised rationalisation for the mechanics may differ that doesn't mean they actually do. Also, even if they did currently differ then I suggest convergence with the D&D idea is the way to be comprehensible to the biggest market share in TT-RPG gaming.

Given the fine-grained (to me) steps in difficulty level then as many modifiers as possible should be subsumed into changes in difficulty level.

Not possible. Difficulty is determined first before any DMs (which alter the level of difficulty, in a sense) can be applied. You remove the DMs... now you have to solve for difficulty before you see any equation yet. Difficulty is not an equation, but a known variable for one.

roll + DMs - Difficulty = Effect

Very possible. Difficulty is best defined by considering the concept of difficulty as it is used in language to describe a problem or situation. As in "How hard is it to explain something to Shawn?". If you can give me the equation for explaining things to you - then please do - and then explain how it's easier to compute your equation than comprehend English.

 

[anselyn]

Unskilled: DM:-3 or two difficulty levels harder? (and Jack-o-T is useful up to level 4).

"There is no benefit for having Jack-of-All-Trades 0 or Jack-of-All-Trades 4 or more."

I do apologise. My brevity caused obfuscation. Let me try again: (BTW - are there any agreed rules on re-trying tasks? Do circumstances have to change - or does is just take extra time?). So:

The current rule is Unskilled: DM: -3. We can change this to Unskilled means that the task difficulty is two levels more difficult for an unskilled character. Thus, removing one odd the odd-integer DMs. And - there's a benefit to this. This means that Jack-of-all-Trades would then be useful up to level 4. This would be useful as then J-o-A-T could then have the same skill cap in character generation as all the other skills. We can do this as although there is currently a rule that there is no benefit for having Jack-of-All-Trades 4 or more, change of that rule is as permissible as it is for any other.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

+/- DMs are hard-wired into the equipment you use.

You are aware that this equipment is largely imaginary? We can define it as we want and the playtest is about how to best achieve the game we want.

Make sure to report any hard-wired DMs that have wonky numbers.

DMs are only applied to rolls when rules state to do so. Gone are the days when referees just +/- DMs hilly nilly to rolls.

After all your posts about Traveller Rule Zero, I'm pleased to see that you've come around to playtesting rules-as-written.

As long as you know what the rules are first before you TRZ your own game.

Referees only concern themselves now with Difficulty target numbers, using Bane or Boon rolls instead of 2D rolls, and (most importantly) what the Effect is. If that isn't clearly explained in the book, it needs to be made so.

I agree - get rid of those DMs and it will be true.

Get rid of which DMs? List the mechanic you plan on using instead.

D&D used dis/advantage to remove lots of piddly little modifiers. Let's do the same here.

D&D's D/A use is nothing like MgT2's B/B use. Two totally different mechanics.

You must have a different usage of the term "mechanic" compared to the rest of the gaming community. "Roll an extra die - take the best/worst result - from discarding the result on one die". That exactly describes the advantage/disadvantage and boon/bane mechanic.

D20 rolls different than 2D. Also, A/D replaces DMs. B/B is not the same as a DM, so can't be used as a replacement.

Given the fine-grained (to me) steps in difficulty level then as many modifiers as possible should be subsumed into changes in difficulty level.

Not possible. Difficulty is determined first before any DMs (which alter the level of difficulty, in a sense) can be applied. You remove the DMs... now you have to solve for difficulty before you see any equation yet. Difficulty is not an equation, but a known variable for one.

roll + DMs - Difficulty = Effect

Very possible. Difficulty is best defined by considering the concept of difficulty as it is used in language to describe a problem or situation. As in "How hard is it to explain something to Shawn?". If you can give me the equation for explaining things to you - then please do - and then explain how it's easier to compute your equation than comprehend English.

Oh. So you don't debate.

The current rule is Unskilled: DM: -3. We can change this to Unskilled means that the task difficulty is two levels more difficult for an unskilled character. Thus, removing one odd the odd-integer DMs. And - there's a benefit to this. This means that Jack-of-all-Trades would then be useful up to level 4. This would be useful as then J-o-A-T could then have the same skill cap in character generation as all the other skills. We can do this as although there is currently a rule that there is no benefit for having Jack-of-All-Trades 4 or more, change of that rule is as permissible as it is for any other.

That sounds imaginary enough. But without your new rule mechanic presented, it makes no sense out of context.

 

[-Daniel-]

D&D's D/A use is nothing like MgT2's B/B use. Two totally different mechanics.

You must have a different usage of the term "mechanic" compared to the rest of the gaming community. "Roll an extra die - take the best/worst result - from discarding the result on one die". That exactly describes the advantage/disadvantage and boon/bane mechanic.

D20 rolls different than 2D. Also, A/D replaces DMs. B/B is not the same as a DM, so can't be used as a replacement.

Shawn, not quite true. The A/D mechanic in D&D is the exact same as in this play test. The DMs I get for my STR and for my magical sword are not replaced by the advantage role, rather the advantage roll replaces the original d20 roll. The advantage roll and boon roll are the same, both are types of dice rolls. They replace the standard roll. The DMs are still added. +1 for scope on my rifle or +1 for my magic sword. neither replaces the DMs. The only difference is the game they are used in and the die type used.

But enough of the D&D side track.

I played out a small encounter last night and used the method you offered. No DMs unless they are hard wired in by a specific rule. Set the Difficulty and allowed use of Boon or Bane if I wanted to adjust things. It worked just fine. Had a few where things balanced out or didn't need an adjustment. But overall not as clunky as I had feared.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

D20 rolls different than 2D. Also, A/D replaces DMs. B/B is not the same as a DM, so can't be used as a replacement.

Shawn, not quite true. The A/D mechanic in D&D is the exact same as in this play test. The DMs I get for my STR and for my magical sword are not replaced by the advantage role, rather the advantage roll replaces the original d20 roll. The advantage roll and boon roll are the same, both are types of dice rolls. They replace the standard roll. The DMs are still added. +1 for scope on my rifle or +1 for my magic sword. neither replaces the DMs. The only difference is the game they are used in and the die type used.

I'll take your word for it. Wizard has so many notes on their A/D wiki. That reminds me. I need to look at Vargr sight.