Destroying Armour!

[Raven Blackwell]

How 'bout this alternative:

Whenever an attacker rolls a natural 20 on an attack roll, the target's armor looses DR equal to the Crit multiplier of the weapon-1. So most wepaons would degrade the armor 1 point, big weapons 2 points.

Simple yet effective. I like it.

 

[Strom]

How 'bout this alternative:
Whenever an attacker rolls a natural 20 on an attack roll, the target's armor looses DR equal to the Crit multiplier of the weapon-1. So most wepaons would degrade the armor 1 point, big weapons 2 points.

Gotta like simple, gotta like effective. Sounds like a new house rule that I like! Thanks!

 

[Sutek]

Since taking more than 20hp damage requires a Massive Damage save, it seems that most people are going to die long before their armor gets banged up. What about adjusting this to be 20 points of damage before damage reduction is accounted for?

Well, think about it for a second.

That statement is true so long as the person in question has a cruddy FORT save and fails the roll after recieving massive damage.

On the other hand, if the guy can make the FORT save, he doesn't die but his armor still drops 1d4 points. (pg 153)

The inexperienced warrior (ie. low character level) will likewise have a lower FORT save and be dead before his armor is destroyed. The trained warrior (ie. high character level) will instead be able to pass the FORT save and not die, but his armor could become severly damaged, increasing the change of suffering further massive damage blows.

It works pretty good as is... :wink:

 

[MightyCthulhu]

It works pretty good as is... :wink:

I can't argue with your theory. The base mechanic looks great to me. But the original poster was complaining because the armor degradation does not happen often enough for his tastes.

Now, my players have just made 3rd level, so I have a bit of a myopic view of how the mechanic actually plays out, but so far we have only seen 1 occasion where 20 points of damage were dealt, and that was to an unarmored Wolf! My players have never seen armor degrade. I am tempted to house rule this as well.

The other thing that I like about it, is that it "feels" similar to the optional weapon sundering rule, which we also use in that both occur on a 1-in-20.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Now, my players have just made 3rd level, so I have a bit of a myopic view of how the mechanic actually plays out, but so far we have only seen 1 occasion where 20 points of damage were dealt, and that was to an unarmored Wolf!

In my game thrre is a 10th level Cimmerian Barbarian/Thief with a 24 STR and a Bardiche that almost never inflicts below 20 hitpoints damage. I've seen armor curl up like tinfoil.....

The other thing that I like about it, is that it "feels" similar to the optional weapon sundering rule, which we also use in that both occur on a 1-in-20.

I usually rule that that this si a potential fumble. The one who rolls an 1 must make a REF save in order to keep ahold of their weapon. Only if they botched the REF save would I consider making the weapon fall apart.

 

[MightyCthulhu]

In my game thrre is a 10th level Cimmerian Barbarian/Thief with a 24 STR and a Bardiche that almost never inflicts below 20 hitpoints damage. I've seen armor curl up like tinfoil.....

Hm.. I'm not sure I like that effect either.

The other thing that I like about it, is that it "feels" similar to the optional weapon sundering rule, which we also use in that both occur on a 1-in-20.

I usually rule that that this si a potential fumble. The one who rolls an 1 must make a REF save in order to keep ahold of their weapon. Only if they botched the REF save would I consider making the weapon fall apart.

No, no. you misunderstand. by 1-in-20 I was referring to the odds. The "optional sundering rule" i was referring to is that when an attacker strikes the defenders DV exactly, it is as if the defender has successfully attempted a sunder on the attackers weapon. I don't have the book handy, so I might not be remembering the specifics of the rule but that is basically it.

By having weapons do AP damage on natural 20's these 2 "special events" have about the same frequency. Now this is appealing to me more than the the default approach.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

In my game thrre is a 10th level Cimmerian Barbarian/Thief with a 24 STR and a Bardiche that almost never inflicts below 20 hitpoints damage. I've seen armor curl up like tinfoil.....

Hm.. I'm not sure I like that effect either.

His enemies certainly don't. 8) The armor damage on a natural twenty will work better I think.

 

[Sutek]

Raven's right, man. Don't forget that using either a two-handede weapon or a single handed weapon with two hands uses the wielder's STR modifier at x1.5. In other words, a +4 becomes +6.

Another option might be to force 1d4 points of damage if the total AP (weapon AP + STR mod) doubles the armor's DR.

 

[Trodax]

How 'bout this alternative:

Whenever an attacker rolls a natural 20 on an attack roll, the target's armor looses DR equal to the Crit multiplier of the weapon-1. So most wepaons would degrade the armor 1 point, big weapons 2 points.

The problem with that rule is that it isn't necessarily the big weapons that have high Crit multipliers. Spears, slings and some bows all have Crit x3.
The most badass armour-destroying weapon in the game would be the stiletto with its Crit of x4!

 

[MightyCthulhu]

The problem with that rule is that it isn't necessarily the big weapons that have high Crit multipliers. Spears, slings and some bows all have Crit x3.
The most badass armour-destroying weapon in the game would be the stiletto with its Crit of x4!

I guess I was thinking of D&D where most weapons do x2 but a few "halfted weapons" have x3.

Maybe the armor reduction could be function of AP. IMO a stiletto should never have a chance of damaging armor.

Another alternative: on a natural 20, when the attacker's total AP exceeds the DR of the targets armor, the armor is reduced 1 DR. If the AP >= 2*DR, then the armor is reduced 2 DR.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Another alternative: on a natural 20, when the attacker's total AP exceeds the DR of the targets armor, the armor is reduced 1 DR. If the AP >= 2*DR, then the armor is reduced 2 DR.

By total AP you mean Strength Modifer plus the weapon's innate AP, correct?

On a side note here's a question. When adding a wielder's STR bonus to a two handed weapon's AP do you add 1x or 1.5x the wieder's STR bonus?

Also you could throw in a variant of one my own house rules- that no light weapon can cause armor damage.

 

[MightyCthulhu]

By total AP you mean Strength Modifer plus the weapon's innate AP, correct?

On a side note here's a question. When adding a wielder's STR bonus to a two handed weapon's AP do you add 1x or 1.5x the wieder's STR bonus?

Also you could throw in a variant of one my own house rules- that no light weapon can cause armor damage.

I think I mean base AP plus Str mod. But I'm just making this up without looking at the book so who knows...

The Str mod on the AP question was asked in the
Compiled Answers Thread but never answered. I think a strict reading of the text says it's always 1x Str Mod.

 

[Sutek]

For what it's worth, the increased STR mod should likewise increase AP in my opinion. It just makes sense.

Maybe the armor reduction could be function of AP. IMO a stiletto should never have a chance of damaging armor.

Well, a Stilleto is only AP1, which means that only someone of STR16-17 could even hope for it to affect DR4 armor (+3 mod +1AP = 4AP). The way the current rules also function is that such a powerful warrior would be likely to inflict Massive Damage more often (20pts beyond armor AP) and damage armor anyway, even with a stilleto. However, a stilleto in the hands of a Thief with that as his style weapon can inflict way more damge (multiple d8 sneak attack Finesse) and never even touch armor.

My suggestion above, however, causes armor damage regardless of the die roll if the AP+STR value is twice that of the DR anyway, regardless of the roll to hit.

At any rate, I think you'll find that a Bardice in that STR17 warriors mits is a much better deal (2d10+4, AP8) and if he's picking up astilletto to fight with, he's actually just as effective picking up a chair as an improvised weapon...

Another alternative: on a natural 20, when the attacker's total AP exceeds the DR of the targets armor, the armor is reduced 1 DR. If the AP >= 2*DR, then the armor is reduced 2 DR.

Well, now, as written, if 24pts of damage are dealt to DR 4 armor, it takes 1d4 DR damage and therefore can be destroyed utterly in one blow. Your method would only reduce it by up to half, and then only on a natural 20. If I needed a 15 to hit and got a 16 on my roll, but inflicted 24 pts of HP damage, that is currently better than your suggest is at destroying armor.

Armor isn't the issue in the game anyway. At a certian point, armor becomes useless because the damage that can be inflicted is amazingly high anyway and Massive Damage ocurs nearly every strike. In early levels it's the difference between life and death in some cases, but if you're spending all your time trying to figure out how to destroy armor, I'd say you're missing the point. Either make Finesse attacks and avoid armor DR altogether or use a big, nasty, high-damge weapon and attempt Massive Damage blows in each round.

You also have to remember that simply equalling the DR with AP+STR is enough to halve that DR. It's not about destrudction so much as it is about bypassing that protective value. Bashing it is one way, but that's more effective with big, nasty, high-damage weapons. Finesse are the way to go if the DR is too great an obstacle or if foes are seeming too "safe".

 

[Trodax]

On a side note here's a question. When adding a wielder's STR bonus to a two handed weapon's AP do you add 1x or 1.5x the wieder's STR bonus?

I posed this question to the Rulesmasters a while back. Here's the answer I got:

Q: If you wield a weapon in two hands, you get to add 1,5x your Strength bonus to damage. Do you also get to add 1,5x your Strength bonus to AP?

A: Yes.

Cheers,

Ian Belcher
RPG Manager

 

[MightyCthulhu]

...that is currently better than your suggest is at destroying armor.

What is "better"? Better is a matter of opinion. In the original posters opinion, increasing the frequency of armor damage is better. I humbly submitted a few alternatives that I think both meet those requirements for "better".

...if you're spending all your time trying to figure out how to destroy armor, I'd say you're missing the point.

I was not spending all my time on this. I haven't even cracked the book LOL! In any event, with all due respect, I think you are the one who has missed the point. Perhaps you would like to read the original post?

Personally I agree with the original poster.

 

[Sutek]

Well, maybe that's why you dont' see what I mean.

See, if you just increase the ammount of damage so that you are around 20+ every hit, then you have a good shot at damaging armor every blow anyway, and then at 1d4 per blow.

 

[MightyCthulhu]

Well, maybe that's why you dont' see what I mean.

See, if you just increase the ammount of damage so that you are around 20+ every hit, then you have a good shot at damaging armor every blow anyway, and then at 1d4 per blow.

Simple and to the point. I like it.

 

[Voltumna]

so, what are the oficial rules to destroy armour? when you do a sunder attack that succeds, you deal damage to the object that you attacked. if it is a worn object like oarmour, there is no opposed check, you attack to hit a certain DV, I don't remember exatly what.

 

[Sutek]

The official rules are just as I've stated:

A) Roll to hit.
B) If the damage roll equals or exceeds 20+DR of the target, then the armor the target is wearing suffers 1d4 reduction in DR

It's the same as Massive Damage. If a target is taking Massive Damage and is forced to take the FORT save to be considered Left For Dead and all that, he also is going to get his armor damaged. It's the same 20+ points of damage, after armor DR, that result in both effects: Massive Damage (pg163) and damage to armor (pg153).

 

[Voltumna]

The official rules are just as I've stated:

A) Roll to hit.
B) If the damage roll equals or exceeds 20+DR of the target, then the armor the target is wearing suffers 1d4 reduction in DR

It's the same as Massive Damage. If a target is taking Massive Damage and is forced to take the FORT save to be considered Left For Dead and all that, he also is going to get his armor damaged. It's the same 20+ points of damage, after armor DR, that result in both effects: Massive Damage (pg163) and damage to armor (pg153).

I guess that´s with any attack that forces a fort save due to MD. What about a sunder attack? Is all the damage rolled inflicted to the DR of the armour?