Darrians and Sword Worlders

[zero]

Reading the history of the Darrians, Ive noticed that since they demo'd the Star Trigger (which seems to be a MAD weapon based on how the Special Arm dont take their TL 16 carriers out of Darrian space) that they have had their Entropic worlds invaded and even taken from them by the Sword Worlders in 593 (which the Darrians eventually used a fleet to retake) and again in 1084 (where the Darrians only manage to reclaim Cunnonic).

Surely them refusing to use the Star Trigger around the 1084 failure would make the powers that be (Zhodani and Sword Worlds mainly) suspicious?

How could the Darrians not justify its use in MAD with the Sword Worlds (I realise that the Star Trigger would not work, but why didnt they try a deception like they did with the Zhodani in 616??) seeing as they were losing space to them with only a minor one-planet reclamation to show for it?
Perhaps the Darrian propoganda says that they dont need it as they'll eventually re-reclaim the worlds, but surely the Sword Worlders (and their secret Zhodani backers) are laughing in the Darrians faces about now?

Opinions?

 

[GypsyComet]

All three parties, as well as the Imperium, are probably well aware that using the Star Trigger is out of the question unless someone is stupid enough to try taking Darrian itself, or one of the other core worlds of the Darrian Confed. It is very much a "back against the wall" sort of weapon. As you say, a "Mutually Assured Destruction" gambit that will only be used if there are no other choices.

The Zhodani aren't laughing. Their records, even more than the Darrians records, show the effects of the Maghiz at considerable distance. While the effects can be minimized beyond the source system, the Darrians could (once the Star Trigger works properly) potentially set off every star in the Sword Worlds at about the same time, or do the same to the nearest branch of Zhodani space. The Maghiz knocked the TL16 Darrians out of space for centuries; it would flatten the TL13 Sword Worlds and roll back the Zhodani like old carpet.

On the slightest chance that it works, there is no laughter, and no thought of trying to invade the heart of Darrian space.

 

[rust]

The Entropic Worlds were not exactly highly developed and densely po-
pulated worlds, it would be difficult to justify the complete destruction
of an entire system (and the consequences for all the neighbouring sys-
tems) with the aim to get the Entropic Worlds back.

Besides, this could backfire very badly. The Zhodani could decide that it
would be worth the risk to eliminate such a dangerous neighbour even
at the possible cost of a few frontier systems, and in an all out war the
Zhodani could easily wipe out the Darrians.

Threatening someone with weapons of mass destruction is rarely a good
idea, and a truly suicidal one if those weapons do not exist or not work.
Actually using such weapons except in the most extreme circumstances
of self defense is pure madness and an invitation to be treated like a ra-
bid dog by all other states.

 

[alex_greene]

roll back the Zhodani like old carpet.

Eloquent phrasing.

 

[GypsyComet]

The Zhodani have a strong industrial base in Ziafrplians, but the fingers that stick into the Marches are more sensitive. If the Darrians thought extinction was on the line, they'd strike into Ziafrplians and Foreven. The Zhodani would certainly recover, but having to rebuild as much as three subsectors *deep* of industrial base would make their stand against the Imperium utterly untennable.

 

[rust]

Well, the Darrians would have to bring their Star Trigger into the Zhodani
systems, and using it would probably take a couple of hours. Depending
on the strength of the Zhodani system defense forces, this could prove
to be extremely difficult, since the Zhodani fleet would hardly stand by
and watch.

 

[Liam Devlin]

All three parties, as well as the Imperium, are probably well aware that using the Star Trigger is out of the question unless someone is stupid enough to try taking Darrian itself, or one of the other core worlds of the Darrian Confed. It is very much a "back against the wall" sort of weapon. As you say, a "Mutually Assured Destruction" gambit that will only be used if there are no other choices.

The Zhodani aren't laughing. Their records, even more than the Darrians records, show the effects of the Maghiz at considerable distance. While the effects can be minimized beyond the source system, the Darrians could (once the Star Trigger works properly) potentially set off every star in the Sword Worlds at about the same time, or do the same to the nearest branch of Zhodani space. The Maghiz knocked the TL16 Darrians out of space for centuries; it would flatten the TL13 Sword Worlds and roll back the Zhodani like old carpet.

On the slightest chance that it works, there is no laughter, and no thought of trying to invade the heart of Darrian space.

No they are NOT laughing. They spent centuries watching the Darrians after they chose to examine why the sudden Nova affect happened....and then rolled up their watchposts, only to be discovered to have been trading with the Swordies a century before contact was made.

And so they still watch, spy, and keep a vigilant eye on them--hence the elaborate need-to-know games the Darrians play against them--because they know they're being watched! :twisted:

 

[GypsyComet]

Well, the Darrians would have to bring their Star Trigger into the Zhodani
systems, and using it would probably take a couple of hours. Depending
on the strength of the Zhodani system defense forces, this could prove
to be extremely difficult, since the Zhodani fleet would hardly stand by
and watch.

A couple hours is nothing in terms of in-system travel times, and every Darrian ship is a question mark of TL. Is it one TL behind the Zhodani, or two ahead? Come in opposite the main world or high above the ecliptic, and they'll never know you are there until the flare warning sats vanish.

 

[zero]

I noticed that the Star Trigger carriers never leave Darrian space, meaning the Zhodani are only a viable target when a fleet of theirs enters Darrian space (like the bluff of 616). It truly is an MAD weapon against the Sword Worlders, who would be the most affected if the 6 parsec Trigger was used.

Seems the Zhodani are acting out (in secret nowadays) against the Darrians because they were found out to be watching from the sidelines post-Maghiz, thought they could fight back but then figured the Star Trigger is a viable threat.
Instead of just let them be, theyre now backing the Sword Worlders to fight alongside their cause, because they cant send a fleet powerful enough to take on the Darrian's own, lest a Star Trigger EMPs them out of commission, an event that would weaken the Zhodani Navy leaving them open to the 3rd Imperium. :lol:

Surely the Zhodani, who arent exactly that local compared to the Sword and Border Worlds, could just back down and concentrate more on the 3rd Imperium? Surely if they are overtly seen to do something involving Darrian space, the Darrians will mount some kind of counterattack (though I expect with their TL 15 Imperial military ships rather than a Star Trigger)?

GypseyComet and rust make alot of sense, with the point of the Darrians probably not about to be seen again to use it unless their main worlds were under threat.

Any more thoughts?

 

[Liam Devlin]

Reading the history of the Darrians, Ive noticed that since they demo'd the Star Trigger (which seems to be a MAD weapon based on how the Special Arm dont take their TL 16 carriers out of Darrian space) that they have had their Entropic worlds invaded and even taken from them by the Sword Worlders in 593 (which the Darrians eventually used a fleet to retake) and again in 1084 (where the Darrians only manage to reclaim Cunnonic).

Surely them refusing to use the Star Trigger around the 1084 failure would make the powers that be (Zhodani and Sword Worlds mainly) suspicious?

How could the Darrians not justify its use in MAD with the Sword Worlds (I realise that the Star Trigger would not work, but why didnt they try a deception like they did with the Zhodani in 616??) seeing as they were losing space to them with only a minor one-planet reclamation to show for it?
Perhaps the Darrian propoganda says that they dont need it as they'll eventually re-reclaim the worlds, but surely the Sword Worlders (and their secret Zhodani backers) are laughing in the Darrians faces about now?

Opinions?

This is the concept of *limited war*--incremental gains, system by system. If the Swordies went for the whole enchilada, they risk getting the Special Arm Fleet visit, and would earn them a very Pyrrhic victory, given the destructive 12-parsec diameter affect (never mind as Mssr GC says the other affects that happen to sentient & nonsentient life beyond that spherical affect zone).

So the back-n-forth of planet taking continues. As long as its not a war to the finish (Total War), the wars between the Darrians & Swordies are of Limited exchanges.

The Zhodani like peaceful neighbors, and trade friendly ones not put off by Psionics. They dropped the ball diplomatically with the Darrians, who do allow Psionics (to the limit they have specialist practioners), and have been paying the price for it ever since--especially in the 2nd Frontier War when Darrian led Aslan raiders cut deep into Foreven and into Iakr Province, wreaking havoc on Zhodani commerce shipping starlanes...

So yes, the Zhodani are wary and suspicious of them, and probably make plans to isolate and keep an eye on them...and are always on the look out for systems open to their way of thinking, and not the Imperium's, nor their allies the Darrians.

 

[Liam Devlin]

I noticed that the Star Trigger carriers never leave Darrian space, meaning the Zhodani are only a viable target when a fleet of theirs enters Darrian space (like the bluff of 616). It truly is an MAD weapon against the Sword Worlders, who would be the most affected if the 6 parsec Trigger was used.

Seems the Zhodani are acting out (in secret nowadays) against the Darrians because they were found out to be watching from the sidelines post-Maghiz, thought they could fight back but then figured the Star Trigger is a viable threat.
Instead of just let them be, theyre now backing the Sword Worlders to fight alongside their cause, because they cant send a fleet powerful enough to take on the Darrian's own, lest a Star Trigger EMPs them out of commission, an event that would weaken the Zhodani Navy leaving them open to the 3rd Imperium. :lol:

Surely the Zhodani, who arent exactly that local compared to the Sword and Border Worlds, could just back down and concentrate more on the 3rd Imperium? Surely if they are overtly seen to do something involving Darrian space, the Darrians will mount some kind of counterattack (though I expect with their TL 15 Imperial military ships rather than a Star Trigger)?

GypseyComet and rust make alot of sense, with the point of the Darrians probably not about to be seen again to use it unless their main worlds were under threat.

Any more thoughts?

The Zhodani you will note, in all four Frontier Wars had ALLIES against the Imperium. This is a cold-war concept taken from the level of Proxy-wars to the full fledged Coalitions against one another. The Swordies are the Zhodani's proxy allied state in the Marches versus both Imperium & the Darrians in peacetime, and catspaw ally in war; the Darrians are the Imperial's ally, and proxy-war Cold war ally in peace time.

Thats it in the nutshell.

 

[zero]

Ok, so in peacetime, the Zhodani use the Sword Worlders as a proxy, fair enough.

The Sword Worlders being a catspaw is believable, still it seems to me the Zhodani are being extra cowardly in that respect; I pictured them having a bit more clout due to the space they hold and their rich background, I guess not though :?

 

[daryen]

1) The "new" Darrians do not actually get the Star Trigger back. Unlike the results of the AM8 adventure, the Darrians in Mongoose Traveller do not have the Star Trigger. In fact, they are likely to never actually get it.

2) As mentioned before, the Star Trigger (assuming it worked) is only to be used to defend their very survival. As important a world as Entrope is (A pop; C TL), its occupation by the Sword Worlds does not actually threaten the Darrian Confederation's survival.

3) The Darrians have a long range plan to free Entrope. They obviously have a "fifth column" operating on the world, and they apparently have semi-regular contact with it. This is, of course, made easier because the Sword Worlds is merely occupying the world, rather than trying to actually integrate it into the Sword Worlds.

4) The Imperium would severely disapprove of the use of the Star Trigger against the Sword Worlds. There is too good of a chance its effects would reach Imperial worlds (a very bad thing), and the instability caused by the ruination of multiple Sword Worlds would be devastating for the Imperium (and the Zhodani and even the Darrians themselves). [In fact, it is quite likely that the Imperium is preventing the Darrians from retaking Entrope using conventional means, too. They can't afford to have their proxy starting a needless (from their point of view) war with the Zhodani proxy.]

In reality the Star Trigger is really a one-use type weapon (simply because you will get massively stomped after using it), and a border world just isn't worth spending that single bullet. Get it back using conventional means.

 

[mlooney]

In MTU the Darrians do, in fact have a working star trigger, however I treat it much the same way as the current USAF treats ICMBs. If they have to use it, something has gone very, very, badly wrong, but if you are going to use it, by all that is Lawful Good, use it. It would not be a single strike, it would be massive attacks against as many stars as they could get to, trying for as close as a TOT style attack as the could do. Probably hit stars that would normally be in "range" of the wave, so some planets would get hit 2 or 3 times at staggered times.

I am on the fence about them having a "tactical" version that doesn't have wave front that goes multiple parsecs , but only effects one star system. That might be used in a general war, much like tac nukes were planed to be used if and when the Warsaw Pact decided to take a vacation in France, via the Fulda Gap.

 

[GypsyComet]

I am on the fence about them having a "tactical" version that doesn't have wave front that goes multiple parsecs , but only effects one star system. That might be used in a general war, much like tac nukes were planed to be used if and when the Warsaw Pact decided to take a vacation in France, via the Fulda Gap.

That would probably take some field testing to develop. Field testing the Star Trigger has... drawbacks.

My impression is that, it having only been "used" the once, the Star Trigger's effects on specific suns is going to be hard to predict or control. Some may "fizzle", while others could well dwarf the Maghiz.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Ok, so in peacetime, the Zhodani use the Sword Worlders as a proxy, fair enough.

The Sword Worlders being a catspaw is believable, still it seems to me the Zhodani are being extra cowardly in that respect; I pictured them having a bit more clout due to the space they hold and their rich background, I guess not though :?

Please recall when this game came out, the real Cold War in RL was going on between the USA & USSR. the obvious parallels between those CW affects and the ones between the Zhodani & Imperium with allies like the Darrians & Swordies are a lot like the politics of say the USA & Israel, and the USSR and the various Arab States. This is a GROSS OVERSIMPLIFICATION I admit, but one easier to grasp when relating the *Big-Picture* diplomacy to one's players at times.

Cowardly? A valid POV and opinion, I suppose. The Zhodani concentrate their energies and monies on their Coreward expeditions, not as much on foreign trade and colonial expansion and Client state hunting like the Imperium does--which has led to their 4 Frontier wars.

The Imperium's expansions and Border-creep get a routine Zhodani attack to keep the Borders where they're at. Bottom line, the Zho don't want the Imperium any closer to them than they already are.

As for using proxies & cowardly... if you have allies, a Coalition of worlds and races, do you not look (from your own people's POV) like the David's versus the Imperial Goliath?

The Zhodani are feared for their active use of warbots--as the training and expense in lives warrants their use in their War strategy. They are man-power savers in the factories, and a force-multiplier on the battlefield, for they do not *surrender*, and fight until destroyed or ordered by handlers with remote Ops to withdraw.

The Zhodani do not like to waste time and effort needlessly in wartime, so they like other Big Stellar states, make war plans, and plan on lightning fast, precision strikes and skirmishes. This makes them seem more threatening than they actually are, a force multiplier in morale and Pyschological warfare--appearing in many systems at once, and then fading away after they've done what they came to do.

And as for proxies, look at what is written in the SM book on the upcoming power of the Federation of Arden; more detail on the level of intrigue as they play off Imperium & ZHodani can be seen in Starports on the entry therein of the major C-class Downport of Arden itself.

Arden takes money from both Zho & Imperial sources, and although the UWP reads TL8, there are a few corporations and industries subsidized there that are TL12-14 from the two big powers, trying woo Arden to their side.

Lots of plot hooks for ya Zero!

 

[Rick]

As another thought - if the Zhodani had attacked the Darrians, an ally of the Imperium, then the Imperium would have been forced to intervene in support - which would have sparked off a full-blown war between the Zhodani and the Imperium. By using the Sword Worlds, they were able to limit the conflict.

 

[zero]

The Imperium would severely disapprove of the use of the Star Trigger against the Sword Worlds. There is too good of a chance its effects would reach Imperial worlds (a very bad thing), and the instability caused by the ruination of multiple Sword Worlds would be devastating for the Imperium (and the Zhodani and even the Darrians themselves). [In fact, it is quite likely that the Imperium is preventing the Darrians from retaking Entrope using conventional means, too. They can't afford to have their proxy starting a needless (from their point of view) war with the Zhodani proxy.]

It is mentioned in the Darrians book that the 3rd Empire were lax in diplomatically trying to regain the Entropic Worlds for the Darrians, thus the reason the Darrians got tired and made a blitzkreig retake of them in 788, thats 163 years since the Imperium gave up trying to get them back, something they spent 32 years apparently trying to do. I guess the Darrians waited patiently and the Empire never told them they gave up? :roll:
Not only that but the Darrians pwnd the weak (at the time) Sword Worlders doing it. :lol:

Its funny that the book presents these events as catching the Zho, 3I and SWs by complete surprise, forcing the SWs to completely change their internal structure :lol:

Its great to have so many plot-hooks and to have a good Big Bad in the Zhos and the Zho's Dragons in the Sword Worlds which are only next door J-1 neighbours to the Darrians.

It does make me wonder, with the 3I's anti-psion government and border-creep compared to the Zhodani, who seemingly just dropped the ball with diplomacy with the Darrians one time (surely they could just have paid repairation back in -165 and that would have been the end of it?);

who are the real bad-guys in the whole picture?

Also for an opinion, in RL Cold War terms, who would you say the Zhos, SWs, 3I and Darrians are closest to and why?

I need this more as a RL (if perhaps dumbed-down, I realise) comparison to explain to some players more than anything.

 

[phavoc]

I just wanna know where Poictesme fits in?

(It's not fair if you Google it and figure it out...)

 

[rust]

The really bad guys ... as almost always in the real world, too, there are
none, just a collision of different interests.

The ones who could do most to keep the situation peaceful would be the
Imperials. They would only have to shut down all operations along the
Zhodani border and ensure that the Darrians would do the same (which
the Darrians probably would prefer anyway). As long as the Imperials
do not provoke the Zhodani, another war is highly unlikely, because the
Zhodani are far more interested in their corewards development than in
anything along the Imperial border.

The ones who are the usual suspects when it comes to troublemaking of
all kinds are the Sword Worlders, they rarely miss an opportunity to be-
gin a fight, although they have a proud tradition of getting beaten. All in
all, they have the political learning curve of a zombie and much more ma-
chismo than strategic sense. While they are not bad ones, they behave
as if they were exceedingly stupid ones - human shaped Vargr.

The Zhodani and the Darrians are in different camps, but otherwise they
could probably be rather good and even friendly neighbours, they have
no interest in each other's systems and share a certain attitude of "mind
over muscle".