CSC errata -- Snub weapon ranges

[apoc527]

What does everyone think about the snub weapon ranges in CSC? Most of them are given the Shotgun range band, except the snub derringer, which has Pistol range.

A snub revolver and snub pistol are given Shotgun range, which is kind of better, kind of worse than standard Pistol range. Not sure what to do...

And what happens if you use snub weapons when NOT in zero-g? I assume they work just fine (aside from doing 2d6-2 damage with ball rather than 3d6-3 as a 9mm autopistol does)?

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Just, yet another, csc mess up.

I use the stats from the core book for snub pistols and accelerator rifles, and ignore the rest of the snub weapons as pretty pointless.

Whether it is longbows, smgs, "assault grenade launchers" or a host of other issues the csc hasn't got a clue.

Egil

 

[atpollard]

What does everyone think about the snub weapon ranges in CSC? Most of them are given the Shotgun range band, except the snub derringer, which has Pistol range.
A snub revolver and snub pistol are given Shotgun range, which is kind of better, kind of worse than standard Pistol range. Not sure what to do...

I took a look at CSC. I don't see a real problem with the snub ranges.
From the description, snub ammo is large caliber (which suggests a big, heavy bullet) and low velocity ... like real life black powder weapons that fire 12.5 to 19 mm lead balls at sub-sonic muzzle velocities. I would assume that a normal pistol would be closer to 9mm parabellum firing a small light projectile at supersonic muzzle velocities.

In the core book, pistol range is optimally effective at Close or Short range and quickly looses accuracy beyond this point, which is about what one would expect for a bullet travelling at low supersonic speeds that would quickly decelerate to the sound barrier where shock waves would cause erratic flight.

Shotgun range (in the core book) is optimally effective at Close range only and slowly but steadily looses accuracy from Short to Long range, which is what one would expect of a massive bullet at sub-sonic velocity ... no trans-sonic shock waves, just a gradual distance induced loss of accuracy. This category was used for a mass of shotgun slugs (with no spin induced stability), large blackpowder ball ammunition and snub weapons.

I admit that the -2 at personal range (Shotgun) vs -1 at personal range (Pistol) makes more sense for an actual shotgun and pistol than for blackpowder or snub weapons, but that was probably a 'necessary evil' accepted in the name of rules simplicity. If that is the case, then the Snub Derringer was probably placed under "Pistol" to reflect better Personal Range accuracy (due to short weapon length) and worse Long Range accuracy (due to the shorter barrel) with the boost at Short Range being another 'necessary evil' for rule simplicity.

I have not compared the listed ranges with real world figures, so I can offer no opinion on that particular issue, but at first glance, the snub ranges appear to be reasonable.

And what happens if you use snub weapons when NOT in zero-g? I assume they work just fine (aside from doing 2d6-2 damage with ball rather than 3d6-3 as a 9mm autopistol does)?

One small observation, sights are adjusted for a specific gravity condition and range. When shooting at a range other than the 'zeroed in' range, the shooter needs to make adjustments to his aim. If you shoot in 1G normally (and adjust your sights for effective range at 1G), then shooting at 2G will cause the bullet to fall more than you expected (the gun aims higher than the actual impact point of the bullet). Shooting at 1/2G will cause the bullet to fall less than you expected (the gun aims lower than the actual impact point of the bullet).

While the sight can be readjusted for local gravity, this is not something normally done in the heat of combat.
I would suggest a small to-hit penalty (-1) for a non adjusted sight.

 

[apoc527]

Thanks, atpollard, I'll use the listed ranges. I would assume that HUD sights autoadjust for gravity, or at least could be easily made to do so. My character isn't much of a fighter, so all he's got is Gun Combat (zero-g weapons) 1 and I want to make sure he can fire the snub pistol when he's planetside as well.

Egil, my man, why so much hating on the CSC?! I know it has some issues and really needs a helping of errata, but it's a great book overall! ;-)

 

[far-trader]

Not having CSC, in order to answer without guessing I'd need to know more.

At a guess, too little research/knowledge again? If they are trying to model the gyrojet weapon that the snub weapons of past editions were.

Effective range should be better than that of a shotgun, and at least 50m. And it could be much longer with a larger round (longer burn time). Not sure what MgT has for effective range of a shotgun, which varies with the choke (which may be beyond game simplicity) but that should be around 35m.

Range for gyrojet weapons is totally dependent on the round itself, not the barrel of the weapon. So I think there should be no difference between pistol, carbine, or rifle if the rounds are the same size.

What's more gyrojets do not drop (or not much) over range, as long as the motor is firing it is in (theoretically) level and straight flight. Aiming would be like a laser, line of sight, with no adjustment needed for gravity or windage.

They are not really a zero-g weapon but they are low recoil. The only weapons with zero recoil are lasers, and actual recoilless rifles (aka bazookas) where all the exhaust gasses are vented straight out the back of the barrel (usually). Gyrojet weapons contain the round's motor exhaust briefly (and at low power initially) which will produce a minimal felt recoil. This is offset by the weapon's light weight (no need for a heavy barrel or frame) so actual recoil effect will probably be about the same as the equivalent cpr weapon. I wonder, does CSC reflect that in lower weapon mass and price?

Firing a gyrojet weapon would be enough different to validate a separate skill, but there will be no or little difference firing it in zero-g or under gravity. Your character is good to rock-and-roll in any terrain with their snub weapons. In my opinion. And again, it is NOT truly a zero-g weapon.

...and I'm running out of time and steam to educate on the issue

A parting question for my curiosity in payment, and I might have asked and been answered this before but my memory is sanctified (holey ):

Did CSC fix the error of gauss weapons being zero recoil or can we add that to the accumulated and growing list of failure?

 

[DFW]

What's more gyrojets do not drop (or not much) over range, as long as the motor is firing it is in (theoretically) level and straight flight. Aiming would be like a laser, line of sight, with no adjustment needed for gravity or windage.

Not sure about this part. That would require an internal, smart guidance system (acting on an artificial horizon, etc.) Otherwise, under grav, it would arc just like an unguided rocket.

 

[hdan]

CSC gives recoil to Gauss weapons, though not a lot of recoil. (Recoil 0 for most of them, -1 for the army model gauss pistol, and 1 for the MagRail rifle.) So anyone with average strength won't have any trouble with them, but they have more recoil than Snub weapons.

The "Accelerator" weapons have no recoil, and are described as basically gyrojet launchers.

 

[far-trader]

What's more gyrojets do not drop (or not much) over range, as long as the motor is firing it is in (theoretically) level and straight flight. Aiming would be like a laser, line of sight, with no adjustment needed for gravity or windage.

Not sure about this part. That would require an internal, smart guidance system (acting on an artificial horizon, etc.. Otherwise, under grav, it would arc just like an unguided rocket.

Yep, and I would presume as much unless they are described as TL6 No need for an artificial horizon indicator and computer flight or any of that though.

Even simple fin stabilization will keep them pretty well line of sight in atmo, and of course in vacuum if they are also jet stabilized. As long as the motor is burning. Both pretty much assumed in gyrojet weapons. Unlike cpr rounds which are immediately affected by both ballistic drop and windage upon leaving the barrel.

Now, if the "snub" weapons are simply short barreled (i.e. snub nosed) versions (separate from accelerator weapons as specifically stated to be gyrojets) of conventional cpr weapons then they will have much poorer range and accuracy comparatively, and will also most certainly NOT be zero-g weapons.

 

[DFW]

CSC gives recoil to Gauss weapons, though not a lot of recoil. (Recoil 0 for most of them, -1 for the army model gauss pistol, and 1 for the MagRail rifle.)

Yes, I read that. Totally incorrect. The recoil exerted on the weapon is equal and opposite to the force moving the "slug".

 

[DFW]

Yep, and I would presume as much unless they are described as TL6 No need for an artificial horizon indicator and computer flight or any of that though.

Given the price of the ammo & that they are designed for zero-G, that would be extremely unlikely.

Even simple fin stabilization will keep them pretty well line of sight in atmo, and of course in vacuum if they are also jet stabilized. As long as the motor is burning. Both pretty much assumed in gyrojet weapons. Unlike cpr rounds which are immediately affected by both ballistic drop and windage upon leaving the barrel.

No, fin stabilized is to keep the spin for gyro. It doesn't do much of anything for dynamic pitch attitude control. "Jet" is to impart spin where no atmos. It has no dynamic control component.

 

[far-trader]

I may well be mistaken DFW but it's always been my impression that the spin stabilization coupled with constant acceleration would result in a (relatively) flat trajectory with minimal windage effects. At least until the motor burns out, making it line of sight for its effective range.

 

[atpollard]

Just to clarify CSC nomenclature:

LOW-G WEAPONS
Specialist weapons for use in low- and zero-gravity conditions are grouped together as ‘low-g weapons’. There are two broad types: snub weapons and accelerator weapons. Lasers are also excellent for use in these conditions but are considered to be a different category since they use a very different means to cause damage.

Snub Weapons
Snub weapons are designed for shipboard use in low-gravity and zero-g conditions. They have a large calibre and short barrel, firing low-velocity rounds to minimize recoil. All snub weapons use the same ammunition, which is normally ball (standard bullets) but can include tranquilliser, gas, flechette and high-explosive armour piercing (HEAP). The standard shipboard security weapon is the snub revolver, though autopistol and SMG variants are available. Snub weapon HEAP ammunition gives full-AP capability, the weapon ignores one point of armour per die it rolls for damage.

Accelerator Weapons
Accelerator weapons reduce recoil by using a two-stage propellant. A minimal charge sends the projectile up the barrel, at which point its own internal rocket motor ignites and accelerates it to the target. Accelerator rifles are reasonably effective and the larger version, the Assault Rocket Launcher, has found some favour. Accelerator pistols have never been popular, however.

 

[DFW]

I may well be mistaken DFW but it's always been my impression that the spin stabilization coupled with constant acceleration would result in a (relatively) flat trajectory with minimal windage effects. At least until the motor burns out, making it line of sight for its effective range.

Well, the stabilization effects the projectile from changing direction along the length of it (gyro). In a zero-g this makes for a VERY accurate line. Under Earth grav for example, It will do the same as spin from rifling. This will result in a standard fall rate of ~10m/sec (just like a bullet fired from a rifled gun). In order to get a "flat" trajectory, it would require on board flight computer, appropriate sensors so it knew its orientation so that the nose could be angled to maintain lift to counter drop off.

At 1cr per mag worth of ammo (snub pistol) this ain't happening at TL 8.

 

[far-trader]

Under Earth grav for example, It will do the same as spin from rifling. This will result in a standard fall rate of ~10m/sec (just like a bullet fired from a rifled gun). In order to get a "flat" trajectory, it would require on board flight computer, appropriate sensors so it knew its orientation so that the nose could be angled to maintain lift to counter drop off.

Nope, I don't think so. Unlike a bullet fired from a rifled gun which is constantly decelerating from the moment it leaves the barrel and thus dropping at the standard fall rate subject to gravity, the gyrojet round is constantly accelerating as long as the motor burns and its gyro action will keep it nose up and forward to maintain level flight. Only when the motor burns out does it become ballistic.

 

[far-trader]

Thanks for the definitions atpollard Very helpful!

 

[atpollard]

Now, if the "snub" weapons are simply short barreled (i.e. snub nosed) versions (separate from accelerator weapons as specifically stated to be gyrojets) of conventional cpr weapons then they will have much poorer range and accuracy comparatively, and will also most certainly NOT be zero-g weapons.

Muzzle brakes could compensate for recoil creating a very low recoil CPR weapon - far better suited for zero-G than a standard firearm.

[and as a TL8 weapon, there is always the option to add integral Grav generators ... should be easier than Grav focusing a laser ... I'm just kidding!]

 

[DFW]

the gyrojet round is constantly accelerating as long as the motor burns and its gyro action will keep it nose up and forward to maintain level flight. Only when the motor burns out does it become ballistic.

Nope, there is no way for it to know what is "up" or down. That would require instruments & computer. Sorry, you'd need both. Unless, you'd like to detail how the bullet knows up from down without instruments... Just because something is accelerating doesn't mean that it doesn't drop as per gravity. Try it sometime.

N.B. "gyro action" actually prevents a nose up attitude... :wink:

 

[atpollard]

Nope, there is no way for it to know what is "up" or down. That would require instruments & computer. Sorry, you'd need both. Unless, you'd like to detail how the bullet knows up from down without instruments... Just because something is accelerating doesn't mean that it doesn't drop as per gravity. Try it sometime.

N.B. "gyro action" actually prevents a nose up attitude... :wink:

Hypothetically, a gun fires a spinning gyroc 'bullet' at 10G acceleration along the axis of the bullet, but the barrel is angled so that the vertical component of the 10G vector is exactly 1G (counterbalancing the downward pull of gravity) and the 9.95G horizontal component of the 10G vector accelerates the 'bullet' towards the target. Spinning maintains the angle of atack. In air, the angle of attack could also be used to generate lift to offset the pull of gravity.

Of course, I generally agree that a good electronic sight that compensates for local gravity, drop and range would be a much simpler solution. I just thought that a level flight projectile might not be impossible.

 

[far-trader]

Now, if the "snub" weapons are simply short barreled (i.e. snub nosed) versions (separate from accelerator weapons as specifically stated to be gyrojets) of conventional cpr weapons then they will have much poorer range and accuracy comparatively, and will also most certainly NOT be zero-g weapons.

Muzzle brakes could compensate for recoil creating a very low recoil CPR weapon - far better suited for zero-G than a standard firearm.

Absolutely. Though at a reduction in range and damage of course. That said the snub weapons are already low velocity to that degree with appropriate (a guess but it seems to be ok) range and damage reduction, but they are still not recoilless. Suited to low-G perhaps, but zero-G no. I'm not sure MgT has got the whole recoil thing right, or more that they haven't explained it well. Strength is a poor model to work it on. Skill would be better. A 50kg weakling with a proper stance and braced will deal with recoil a lot better than a body builder firing off balance with no support.

You're not the first to suggest grav compensation And I'd accept it at a drop of the hat at the right TL and price. TL8 could well be enough.

And you could just make the weapon heavier to compensate for felt recoil.

 

[DFW]

Hypothetically, a gun fires a spinning gyroc 'bullet' at 10G acceleration along the axis of the bullet, but the barrel is angled so that the vertical component of the 10G vector is exactly 1G (counterbalancing the downward pull of gravity) and the 9.95G horizontal component of the 10G vector accelerates the 'bullet' towards the target. Spinning maintains the angle of atack. In air, the angle of attack could also be used to generate lift to offset the pull of gravity.

Correct. The "round" has no idea what its orientation is and can't correct in flight. Just as I was saying. The shooter has to aim the barrel correctly, accounting for drop. Same as for a normal gun.