Core Rulebook 2008 Spacecraft Design Electronics

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

Can a ship have redundant electronics?

On the p. 108 Core Rulebook 2008 Spacecraft Design Electronics the bridge includes the tons and cost of a standard electronics package.

Can one equip a ship with the standard system and one of the other options in the table?

 

[AndrewW]

On the p. 108 Core Rulebook 2008 Spacecraft Design Electronics the bridge includes the tons and cost of a standard electronics package.

Can one equip a ship with the standard system and one of the other options in the table?

Generally the standard system gets upgraded and is no longer needed.

Some warships do mount multiple sensor packages for redundancy.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello again AndrewW,

On the p. 108 Core Rulebook 2008 Spacecraft Design Electronics the bridge includes the tons and cost of a standard electronics package.

Can one equip a ship with the standard system and one of the other options in the table?

Generally the standard system gets upgraded and is no longer needed.

Some warships do mount multiple sensor packages for redundancy.

I guess there were two different questions about the electronic packages.

Basically redundant electronics are possible in Spacecraft Design 2008, however usually the standard is replace by selected option.

Here is something I've been toying with which has a bearing on the electronics, I think. A standard merchant ship has been modified to gather intelligence while travelling through other star systems. The standard electronics package consoles also include one of the other options and is disguised when not in use or when custom officials or other official board. Both systems are functional.

Hopefully, this would be a plausible bit of fluff in MgT.

 

[Condottiere]

Redundant in the sense that being active shouldn't give you more sensitive sensors, though you'd be still emitting a more visible signal.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Condottiere,

Redundant in the sense that being active shouldn't give you more sensitive sensors, though you'd be still emitting a more visible signal.

A ship has was upgraded to the basic civilian package and for backup kept the standard package or installed a second basic civilian package.

The ship is actually equipped with say the basic military option the console would appear to be say a basic civilian or standard package when a customs official or other inspector pocked around the bridge consoles. In this case the background fluff would have to contain the information.

 

[Reynard]

Check page 106 in the Redundant System block. I'd say you can add another electronics system designated as secondary as you can a computer. If you take three sensor hits the primary is destroyed and the secondary would go online.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Reynard,

Check page 106 in the Redundant System block. I'd say you can add another electronics system designated as secondary as you can a computer. If you take three sensor hits the primary is destroyed and the secondary would go online.

Thank you for the page reference which does support the post by AndrewW and probably the other replies too.

I'll admit to being very light on combat resolution so I'll have to do a lot of reading before being in complete agreement with the primary sensor being destroyed before the back comes on line.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

The rules are quite vague on this issue but I have allowed multiple computers.

Think "Fire Control Computer" etc. For the sake of simplicity, I allowed only 1 redundant computer.

The new rules allow a back up computer but it must be a lower model than the main computer (or it becomes the main computer).

That seems like a reasonable interpretation.

 

[snrdg121408]

Howdy Rikki Tikki Traveller,

The rules are quite vague on this issue but I have allowed multiple computers.

Think "Fire Control Computer" etc. For the sake of simplicity, I allowed only 1 redundant computer.

The new rules allow a back up computer but it must be a lower model than the main computer (or it becomes the main computer).

That seems like a reasonable interpretation.

My understanding is that in the MgT 1st ed. CRB/MRB one ton of fire control is required for each turret and bay mounted weapon.

I'm not sure which rule set (CT, MT, TNE, T4, GURPS Traveller, or Traveller 2K) mentioned that there where two or three computers onboard starships and systems ships.I've been digging through my BITS The Periodical Bibliography and BITS Traveller Bibliography which turned up and article in JTAS #1 expanding the CT LBB 2 Computer rules, unfortunately my search for three computers is >>> candle flickers into flame...

TNE FF&S Mk 1 Mod 1 (January 1994) p. 48 Computers
Any orbital or deep-space craft must have at least one computer and a jump capable craft require an additional computer. Spacecraft may use either standard or fiber-optic models of computers, or a mix of the two.
Spacecraft generally have at least two computers: one is the primary while the other is used as a maintenance troubleshooter and back-up to the primary. Starships have three: one primary, one for jump safety backup, and third one being used as a maintenance troubleshooter and back-up to the primary.

T4 Book 2 Starships SSDS, per Guy Garnett used TNE FF&S to built the modules, p. 73 have three computers of the same model and TL.

T4 Book B* FF&S p. 69: Any vehicle intended to travel into orbit must have at least one computer, and any jump-capable spacecraft must have a minimum of two.

My take is that any back-up computer is the same or lower model as the primary computer. For example the primary is a Model 3 fib my back-up or back-ups are either Model 3 fibs, Model 3, or any lower model.

Thank-you for the feedback.

*I changed Book D which is the Naval Architect's Manual to Book B which is FF&#.

 

[AndrewW]

My understanding is that in the MgT 1st ed. CRB/MRB one ton of fire control is required for each turret and bay mounted weapon.

Correct.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AndrewW,

My understanding is that in the MgT 1st ed. CRB/MRB one ton of fire control is required for each turret and bay mounted weapon.

Correct.

Yippee, another correct understanding of the rules.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

Rikki Tikki Traveller mentioned that in the new design rules back-ups have to be lower than the primary's rating. This rule does not make sense to me based on real life and my understanding of the term "back-up".

The USS Enterprise CVN 65, a real life example, had eight identical reactors, IIRC, one primary reactor and a back-up reactor was dedicated each steam turbine driving one of the four propeller shafts.

"Back-up" system in my understanding is an item that, technically anyway, performs the same functions at identical levels. In my opinion "back-up" computers, maneuver drives, jump drives, and power plants should be of the same rating to take over if the primary no longer operates at full function.

On a submarine there are three sources for power and propulsion production they are: (1) a Reactor, (2) Batteries, and (3) a Diesel.

The battery has two duties the first is to provide an alternate method of propulsion while the reactor provides power. The second duty is to provide both propulsion and emergency power if the reactor is shutdown. The diesel is primarily an emergency system with three functions (1) charge the batteries, (2) electrical power to critical systems, and (3) run an electric outboard motor. Of course if the boat is going against a faster moving current than what the electrical motor can produce you have a small problem of moving backwards.

In my opinion a back-up would be identical to the primary and an emergency back-up could be identical, but is probably smaller than the primary.

If I installed a basic military electronics suite as the primary the backup/emergency suite would be either basic military, basic civilian, or a standard system.

 

[AndrewW]

Rikki Tikki Traveller mentioned that in the new design rules back-ups have to be lower than the primary's rating. This rule does not make sense to me based on real life and my understanding of the term "back-up".

Only computers. Does not apply to backup sensors or anything else.

The battery has two duties the first is to provide an alternate method of propulsion while the reactor provides power. The second duty is to provide both propulsion and emergency power if the reactor is shutdown. The diesel is primarily an emergency system with three functions (1) charge the batteries, (2) electrical power to critical systems, and (3) run an electric outboard motor. Of course if the boat is going against a faster moving current than what the electrical motor can produce you have a small problem of moving backwards.

Batteries also produce less noise then the diesel.

If I installed a basic military electronics suite as the primary the backup/emergency suite would be either basic military, basic civilian, or a standard system.

Go ahead.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AndrewW,

Rikki Tikki Traveller mentioned that in the new design rules back-ups have to be lower than the primary's rating. This rule does not make sense to me based on real life and my understanding of the term "back-up".

Only computers. Does not apply to backup sensors or anything else.

The rule does not make sense for computers either in my opinion, especially for jump control. The old Space Shuttle, IIRC, had six identical computers that I believe required four or five match before certain actions could be accomplished. T4 Book 2 Starships showed that all the computers where the same model

The battery has two duties the first is to provide an alternate method of propulsion while the reactor provides power. The second duty is to provide both propulsion and emergency power if the reactor is shutdown. The diesel is primarily an emergency system with three functions (1) charge the batteries, (2) electrical power to critical systems, and (3) run an electric outboard motor. Of course if the boat is going against a faster moving current than what the electrical motor can produce you have a small problem of moving backwards.

Batteries also produce less noise then the diesel.

Yep, the batteries produce less noise than the diesel and does not require the boat to raise the snorkel mast to pull in enough air to run the diesel. Diesel boats are usually faster running on their diesels. Boomers and fast attacks are faster using the reactor, then battery, and finally running the emergency propulsion motor.

 

[AndrewW]

The rule does not make sense for computers either in my opinion, especially for jump control. The old Space Shuttle, IIRC, had six identical computers that I believe required four or five match before certain actions could be accomplished. T4 Book 2 Starships showed that all the computers where the same model

One was a backup. Had one launch abort where the backup computer was shutting down the other computers, eventually after diagnosing the computers that where being shut down and finding nothing wrong they found it was a problem in the back computer.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AndrewW,

The rule does not make sense for computers either in my opinion, especially for jump control. The old Space Shuttle, IIRC, had six identical computers that I believe required four or five match before certain actions could be accomplished. T4 Book 2 Starships showed that all the computers where the same model

One was a backup. Had one launch abort where the backup computer was shutting down the other computers, eventually after diagnosing the computers that where being shut down and finding nothing wrong they found it was a problem in the back computer.

My recollection was a bit off from http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/flyout/flyfeature_shuttlecomputers.html there were five, not six, flight computers. Also according to the article four were operational and the fifth was, or one as you pointed out, the back-up. However, all five computers are identical systems. However, the one that the back-up replaced would become the back-up and would be used as a last resort until repaired Ithink.

I may be confusing on how computers work in MgT with one or more of the other Traveller design rule sets which could be why I am not understanding the information from the post made Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:31 pm that in the new design rules a back-up computer has to be a lower rating than the primary.

My understanding is that the Computer Model denotes the Jump Rating the system can handle. For example a standard Model 4 or Model 3 bis computer is designed to run a jump 4 drive. Of course the computer can handle any jump between 1 and 4 parsecs.

If my understanding is correct, then under the new design rules for computers the back-up system would have to be a Model 3 bis for a Model 4 primary or a Model 2 or 2 bis for the Model 3 bis.

I do not understand why a back-up computer would not be the same model as the primary. While the primary is online the back-up or back-ups are being used for other tasks, but are set up to automatically or be manually to control of the ship if there is a problem with the primary.

Thank you for the help.

 

[Condottiere]

A colleague told me that the Space Shuttle used 486s, being the last perfectly reliable computer architecture.

 

[AndrewW]

A colleague told me that the Space Shuttle used 486s, being the last perfectly reliable computer architecture.

It's not simply that. The chips need radiation hardening and that's usually awhile after they are out on the general market.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Condottiere and AndrewW,

Per the link in my post Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:46 pm the 1991 upgrade had a storage capacity of 1 megabyte and could run 1.4 million instructions per second. I am fairly sure my 486 did a better job, of course the system would have failed during lift-off due to the vibrations. If the system somehow managed to stay alive only to be killed by radiation.

The link shows the computers in one of the pictures there is the 1991 upgrade and the original computer..

 

[AnotherDilbert]

From what I have heard it is not so much a question of making space-worthy electronics, the real problem is testing and certifying the components as space-worthy. The computer and smartphone industries order components in the billions per year, the space industry might order a few hundred...