[CONAN] Interesting Weapon & Combat Model

[galloglaich]

Except that the Codex, with all those Martial Feats, is quite complex by itself. It would be a task to separate out the parts that favor the weapons.

Point taken, though there are really only a few with a direct effect, half-staff, pollaxe fighting, false-edge cutting, twitch cut, winding. Maybe one or two others.

Ah, I see. So, in Conan , we could make range determination in the 5' square one of the benefits of having initiative. That person will always pick his optimal range, of course, but that range might not be optimal for his foe.

That could work.

As for changing range...does there need to be a penalty for doing so?

I guess it just depends on how you handle movement. Does Conan use the default SRD rules or something else?

G

 

[Supplement Four]

I guess it just depends on how you handle movement. Does Conan use the default SRD rules or something else?

G

SRD movement

 

[galloglaich]

Well, in the SRD you get one 'Move Equivalent Action' if you don't take a 'Full Combat Action', if I remember correctly (forgive me if I got the terminology wrong) so maybe if you want to change range you have to use a move equivalent action, which makes you give up extra attacks IIRC.

G.

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, in the SRD you get one 'Move Equivalent Action' if you don't take a 'Full Combat Action', if I remember correctly (forgive me if I got the terminology wrong) so maybe if you want to change range you have to use a move equivalent action, which makes you give up extra attacks IIRC.

G.

The problem is that you can take a 5' step into another square and not give up any attacks.

Under the optional Facing rule, a character can change his facing once per round as a free action or as part of his movement when he moves. If he takes a 5' step, he can only change facing once.

We could make this an option to either change facing or change range from Onset to Melee or Melee to Onset.

I think that would work, and the optional facing rules lend themselves well to the gritty detail of the Codex triple numbers.

 

[Supplement Four]

Thus, I think the way I'd go is:

1. Use adjusted triple weapon numbers. (Refigure the numbers after using a -4 modifier to have both bonus and penalty numbers.)

2. Grapple range is considered inside the same 5' square as the foe.

3. Melee range and Onset range inhabit the same 5' square. A base is shared with the enemy. Onset range can also be considered the square 10' if reach weapons are used.

4. The character with initiative controls the Onset/Melee range inside the same 5' square.

5. The Combat Facing rules are used from UA. Changing Onset/Melee range is same action as changing facing. A character gives up an opportunity to change facing in order to change range.

 

[galloglaich]

Well, I would argue that changing range is not as easy as taking a five foot step, to change range you have to move relative to your opponent - in a fight you move back and forth the whole time, but your opponent moves with you. Getting from close (melee) range back to onset is particularly tricky. Beginners rarely can.

But your suggestions sound reasonable for the game, whatever works best in the game mechanics with the least amount of complexity is usually best.

G.

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, I would argue that changing range is not as easy as taking a five foot step, to change range you have to move relative to your opponent - in a fight you move back and forth the whole time, but your opponent moves with you.

I'm open to hearing other ways of doing it mechanically.

 

[galloglaich]

I would require a 'move equivalent action', that way there is some tradeoff. If you want your full combat action, and your multiple attacks (asusming you are high level) you have to accept the range you are at. If you want to move into optimal range it requires using up your movement, a representation that you are taking more time to move in your fight.

By the way what kind of Critical hit system does Conan RPG have?

G.

 

[Supplement Four]

By the way what kind of Critical hit system does Conan RPG have?

Standard d20 fair. Weapons have critical threat numbers. A check is made to see critical occurs.

Also, the Massive Damage Threshold is lowered from standard d20 games to 20 points. Any attack that does 20+ points in one blow is considered Massive Damage. Victim makes Fortitude check or is considered dead or dying in the negative hit points.

I see your point about the Move action and range. Makes sense.

 

[galloglaich]

You might want to try different types of critical hits based on different attack types. This is another nuance of the weapons. You may have noticed the weapons have 'Primary' and 'Secondary' attack types of Slash, Chop, Pierce, and Bludgeon.

Slash (like a saber or a razor) is the worst against armor (almost useless) but does the best damage in critical hits (I think 1-12 if I remember.) So it's the best attack type against unarmored opponents or if you can bypass the armor.

Chop (like an axe) is kind of in the middle, mediocre against armor, but decent damage (1-10 IIRC)

Bludgeon and Pierce are both good against armor but do the least crit damage, (1-8).

Some weapons have only one of these attack types (like a stiletto, a mace or a pike) some have several (like a halberd or a longsword). This is another way weapons are differentiated.

Also this way almost all weapons really have a chance of causing fairly serious harm with a Critical. Daggers really shouldn't be nuisance weapons. Even a small kife may not cut that well but if you really stab somebody you can kill them. Of course this is deadlier in the Codex because of the Martial Pool and the Dynamic Criticals. If you hit someone with a four dice attack and get a Critical Hit, you do 4 dice of Crit damage. But in a lot of RPG games you don't want quite that level of lethality / grim and gritty combat.


A critical hit with a bow or crossbow also means the arrow / bolt is impaled into the target.

Just options, not really necessary but maybe something interesting to think about. Different weapons have different values.


Another fun feature is grapple from a distance. Weapons like kama, picks, axes, bills, halberds etc. with hook shaped blades can be used to pull people off their feet, basically grapple while still at melee or onset range. This gives another nice advantage to polearms.

G.

 

[Supplement Four]

You might want to try different types of critical hits based on different attack types. This is another nuance of the weapons. You may have noticed the weapons have 'Primary' and 'Secondary' attack types of Slash, Chop, Pierce, and Bludgeon.

I saw that in the rules, and I like it. But, I'm worried about double dipping with the base Conan rules.

In Conan, each weapon is given an Armor Piercing value. A cutlass does more straight damage than a warhammer, but the warhammer has better armor penetration.

That's why, in the Conan game, pirates favor a cutlass, because it's a weapon that does a lot of damage against non-armored foes. You won't find a warhammer on a pirate ship.

Where you'll find the warhammer is on the large battlefield of armored men in the hands of a mercenary.

In many ways, the concepts of the Codex are already implemented in the Conan rules, but they're expressed in a different way mechanically.

A critical hit with a bow or crossbow also means the arrow / bolt is impaled into the target.

I find a problem with that. It sounds neat on the surface, but having an arrow or bolt impaled on you is a serious wound. This type of thing should not happen until the character is at zero hit points or less.

Why?

Look at how long it takes to heal wounds. You do 8 points of damage with an impaled arrow, and there are no wound effects. The character is not hampered in any way. With 1 HP, he can act as good and as healthy as he does with full hit points. And, with many characters, it would only take a night or a day of rest to regain that 8 hit points of damage.

So, it doesn't make sense that a man impaled with an arrow is completely healed 24 hours later just by resting.

Another fun feature is grapple from a distance. Weapons like kama, picks, axes, bills, halberds etc. with hook shaped blades can be used to pull people off their feet, basically grapple while still at melee or onset range. This gives another nice advantage to polearms.

Yes, Conan has this, too. It's a Trip Combat Maneuver. Weapons have to have a "hook".

 

[galloglaich]

If you have ways of modeling it in your own system, use those by all means. My point is only that some weapons are not versatile (a mace has only one way to cause damage) whereas others have many ways to attack. A hablerd can thrust with a can-opener like spike and strike with a back-spike, which are both excellent for armor piercing, but also has an enormous cleaver-like blade which is good for causing massive damage to unarmored flesh. Swords are very versatile weapons for this reason.


One other minor quibble... who says pirates didn't use armor? Unless you mean 18th Century pirates. You know there were pirates in Medieval Europe, ancient Rome, Greece etc. right?

Anyway sounds like you are on the right track...

G.

 

[Supplement Four]

My only quibble... who says pirates didn't use armor? Unless you mean 18th Century pirates. You know there were pirates in Medieval Europe, ancient Rome, Greece etc. right?

I mean Conan pirates. Most of 'em don't use armor. Sometimes you'll see a breastplate or a chainmail hauberk, but most wear silk and cloth or go shirtless.

 

[galloglaich]

I was thinking of something more like this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victual_Brothers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_St%C3%B6rtebeker

I'm a big fan of Medieval pirates. Plate armor, piracy and guns you can't beat that.

Sorry for all the history segues, I really can't resist. You know Robert E Howard himself was very into history...? Maybe I'm channeling him a little.

G.

 

[Supplement Four]

I was thinking of something more like this

LOL.

And, I was thinking more like this:

 

[galloglaich]

I admit, your pictures are better than mine

G.

 

[Supplement Four]

I admit, your pictures are better than mine

G.

Well, brother, I'll tell you this. I love thinking about and discussing mechanics. And you wrote a fantastic set of alternate rules for the d20 game. One of the things that brought me to the Conan RPG was that I admired how the authors changed the d20 system just enough to both make the mechanics fit the Hyborian Age and simply improve the system as a whole. If I wasn't so enamored with the Conan mechanics, I'd give the Codex a try.

As it is, I still may add the triple stats, but that's such a major change to the game, I'm going to wait a bit.

I've got two questions for you: 1 - You said that there is an update to the rules? If so, I need to download it.

2 - If I do end up using the rules, I'll want a printed hard copy. Are there any discounts for those of us who have already purchased the pdf's and want hard copies, too?

 

[galloglaich]

I admit, your pictures are better than mine

G.

Well, brother, I'll tell you this. I love thinking about and discussing mechanics. If I wasn't so enamored with the Conan mechanics, I'd give the Codex a try.

Thanks. Codex was really designed to do exactly what we are doing here, to discuss mechanics. I set out something like seven or eight years ago to prove that a realistic, historically accurate game could be fun and fast-paced. Something kind of outside the paradigm of the way DnD was going, even outside of the paradigm of GNS theory.

Codex isn't even a complete game, there is no magic system or character generation system yet. Initially it was just this basic rules mechanic of the martial pool, the martial feats, and the three range bands etc. Designed for people to play with as proof of a concept. Over the years I've gradually added elements to the core rules and wrote those two other books because there was a little demand for it and it was fun to tinker with. Right now I'm working on an historical setting which has been a lot of fun for me.

But really it's meant for people to tack on to other systems, to inspire their own homebrew ideas etc., just like you are talking about doing with Conan. People have already done it with pathfinder, game of thrones, and True20. I always thought Conan was a natural fit; it's a literary genre, but the original REH books anyway were always quite realistic about the combat.

As it is, I still may add the triple stats, but that's such a major change to the game, I'm going to wait a bit.

Try adding it one night as a one-off and see how it works, what is the worst that can happen?

I've got two questions for you: 1 - You said that there is an update to the rules? If so, I need to download it.

Wait until later this weekend, or I'll notify you. A fan submitted two pages of cavalry rules that I'm going to add this weekend to the core rules.

2 - If I do end up using the rules, I'll want a printed hard copy. Are there any discounts for those of us who have already purchased the pdf's and want hard copies, too?

Officially, no, since I don't make much off the printed copies, (about $5 each over Lulus printing cost). But since you introduced the Codex to a new audience, I'll pm you maybe we can work something out.

G.

 

[Supplement Four]

Thanks. Codex was really designed to do exactly what we are doing here, to discuss mechanics. I set out something like seven or eight years ago to prove that a realistic, historically accurate game could be fun and fast-paced. Something kind of outside the paradigm of the way DnD was going, even outside of the paradigm of GNS theory.

The thing I like about the Codex is the excact same thing I like about Active Defense. The players feel it.

It isn't an "Ah...you're hit." It's an, "That big two-handed war sword is coming down hard on your left shoulder. What do you want to do?"

"Block it! I'm going to throw up my shield as fast as I can."

"Roll that die and let's see if you got your shield up in time."

The very act of rolling the die injects a feeling into the players that they're actually doing something--not passively watching--during the combat.

Your Martial Pool does the same thing. I think it really adds to the game.

I may switch over to it at some point.

Right now I'm working on an historical setting which has been a lot of fun for me.

Keep me informed. Put me on a e-mail list or something. I'd like to learn more about it and follow its progress.

Try adding it one night as a one-off and see how it works, what is the worst that can happen?

You don't know my group. They don't like a lot of flip-flopping with the rules. I talk a lot about rules on forums, but I always wait on them and think them through, sometimes for months, before I introduce them to my group.

The don't want to playtest. They want finished rules.

That massive of a change in my game would be too bumpy for me. I couldn't just "try it out". I'd have to "try it out with the intention of keeping it".

Wait until later this weekend, or I'll notify you.

Please do.

Officially, no, since I don't make much off the printed copies, (about $5 each over Lulus printing cost). But since you introduced the Codex to a new audience, I'll pm you maybe we can work something out.

Ah, gotcha. Everybody loves a discount, but with or without one, if I decide to use the book, I'll buy the hardcopy anyway.

I acutally had a free pdf copy of From Stone To Steel. I printed out the pdf at work. But, I liked the book so much, I wanted a hard copy, so I hunted down one at Amazon for $40 bucks.

So, if your margins are that thin, don't worry about the discount. I just thought it wouldn't hurt to ask.

 

[Supplement Four]

But really it's meant for people to tack on to other systems, to inspire their own homebrew ideas etc., just like you are talking about doing with Conan. People have already done it with pathfinder, game of thrones, and True20.

What I think you need in the Codex set (and it might be your biggest seller) is a chapter (or a short book, depending on how far you go with it) that takes the base Codex rules and offers a ton of optional ideas.

What I'm talking about is a chapter that will do the same for the Codex as chapters in the 3.5E DMG or in Unearthed Arcana. I'd like to see a lot of different ideas for taking Codex mechanics, part by part, and integrating them with the standard d20 rules. That would be a huge help for DMs trying to do as you say--use ideas from the Codex to boost their games.

I'd like to see little design side-bars, too, that detail why certain choices were made or give advice to GMs who work to include some or all of the Codex into their game.

For example, my idea of -4 to the triple stats might be included, making the triple stats run from +4 to -4 instead of +0 to +8. I'm sure there's other ideas, too.

The Codex has so many good ideas in it--I just think it needs a section to help a GM integrate the ideas into his game--with ideas that stray from the base Codex rules as variants.

Another topic I'd like to see discussed in this chapter: How to make it easy for GMs to use the Codex rules with NPCs. I mean, it takes some work to add triple stats to monsters and Martial Feats to NPCs. What about Goblins and such? That's not important to me, in the Conan game, but it would be if I were running a standard D&D game.

One of the things that amazes me about the Codex is how few pages are needed to describe the Marital Pool--a mechanic that totally changes a core aspect of the game.

It's beautiful the way you did that.

I'd like to see the same application applied to a chapter that is meant to do nothing other that give GMs options and help them integrate Codex aspects into their game.