[CONAN] Interesting Weapon & Combat Model

[galloglaich]

Ah, I understand. All groups are different, sometimes it's better to have a more demanding group like that because they take the game more seriously.

Thanks for the nice comments about the Codex, yeah it definitely livens up combat a lot. The background of it is that I do martial arts, specifically historical fencing. I find the fight, the ebb and flow of armed combat and all the strategy that goes into it, was a lot of fun, and I wanted to see that in an RPG.

What you are asking for is what has been one of the main requests from people for the Codex over the years. The original core rules was only 40 pages, and half of that was charts of weapons and such. The design philosophy of the Codex was to keep everything light and quick.

So the other 70 or so pages in there now are basically all to help people integrate into 3.5 SRD / OGL games. I put in tables of all the standard SRD Feats, sample animals, sample characters, mounted combat rules, a little bit of magic integration stuff, and a lot more 'fluff' in general. I know it would help to do a lot more but I was trying to let the forum fulfill that role as a lot of people chimed in with various questions and increasingly, their own content. See for me to write integration material for Pathfinder or Mongoose I'd have to get permission from them which I'm not likely to get, so it's better to let fans do it with a little guidance from me.

Right now though I had to lock the forum due to intense spam attacks which started back in February. I guess they figured out how to read the captcha or they use people to make the logins, but I get like 5 or 6 fake accounts per day. I have to ask the guy who made the site for me to upgrade the software or something.

In the meantime my current development efforts are focused on the historical campaign setting, which has evolved into me writing a book on Medieval Poland, a regular book something more like one of those Osprey Military books than anything specifically for RPGs. I found the region was so complex and interesting it required this level of effort to do it right, and it has been a lot of fun but it's taken up an enormous amount of my time for the last six months, more than any other project for the Codex. The campaign setting part is separate and has lagged behind a bit but I'm keeping it going because I'm running a Beta test group through it which has been a lot of fun. It's been interesting seeing them make the transformation from regular fantasy tropes into getting into characters as Polish knights, Prussian burghers, pagan Lithuanian cavalrymen etc.

I'll send you a PM about following the Beta, and the books. The core rules book is I think $15 from Lulu.

G.

 

[galloglaich]

Ok I updated the core rules, here is the link on Lulu

http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/codex-martialis-core-rules-v25008-bw/9455992

And this is the weapons book

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/codex-martialis-weapons-of-the-ancient-world-%28bw%29/12933913

The other one, the armor, guns and missile weapons book, isn't on Lulu yet apparently.

G.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Did you updated the Weapon book too?

 

[LucaCherstich]

Thus, I think the way I'd go is:

1. Use adjusted triple weapon numbers. (Refigure the numbers after using a -4 modifier to have both bonus and penalty numbers.)

I'm sorry S4, but this is not a solution for adapting the Codex to Conan rules in a balanced way.

If you subtract -4 to every weapon defense (the third Weapon stat) you'll have that, since nearly all the Wepaon have defense bonus in the range of 1-3, ALMOST ALL the weapons gives you a penalty to Parry, rather than a Bonus.

You'll get the crazy situation of making dodging much worse than parrying!

Codex rules and Conan were designed with very different mind settings and if you want to fix a piece of the Codex into Conan you should consider all of the consequences that piece has on Conan.

If you want to go on with your idea of -4, you maybe would give a -4 to dodge too, but even that is not a solution (!!), since it makes Dodge too weak in comparison to parry.

If you want to adapt the Codex triple stats in a balanced way, I think the only way is to keep the bonueses as they are and give something to Dodge.
I gave to dodge a double Dex, sicne Dex is the variable (as weapon shape is a variable for parry).
If you do not like it, add something else! But not a fixed number (it would make Dodge less variable than parry among different characters)

At least to me (and I'm NOT an authority) it looks like that my solution is the only way to:
1) easily use the codex with Conan rpg without too many calculations
2) introduce a new parrying variable (weapon) as well as a new Dodge variable (double Dex)
3) non un-balancing Parrying & Dodging

But that's just me, and I could be wrong.

 

[galloglaich]

You could also just cut the values in half. That is pretty simple.

G.

 

[galloglaich]

Did you updated the Weapon book too?

Weapon book is as it was, like I said that is a 'stable' version, probably won't be changing that for a while.

G.

 

[LucaCherstich]

You could also just cut the values in half. That is pretty simple.

G.

but, as I said above, you will STILL have a Weapon bonus to Parry and not to Dodge, unless we are going to treat Weapon Defence as a stat for dodges too...which is irrational to me....

 

[galloglaich]

I see so it's a balance issue between two types of player characters. One type uses only a parry bonus and the other type uses only a dodge bonus. Is that it?

G.

 

[LucaCherstich]

It'a a balance issue between 2 kinds of defenses.
If one does not consider specific situation modifiers, I should say some people are better at Dodge (for their Dex & Class mod) and use it more often, others are better at Parry (for their Str & Class Mod) and use it more often.
I think Weapon Defense (3rd weapon stat in your rules) should be added only to Parry, otherwise it does not makes sense.
But if you do it, you need to add a similar mod to Dodge too.

This mod needs to be:
1) balanced, being in the same range of equivalent weapon def mod to Parry
2) variable as the weapon def mod, but realistic according to real characteristics of dodging.

So, what is this second mod?
Dex mod is the only answer. This is alreasy being calculated in Dodge, therefore counting the Dex mod twice is the only way to do it in a rational way, since this mod is:

1) balanced: More or less in the same range od weapon mod to parry
2) Variable and realisticex mod is not only variable according to each person, but it is also modified by type of armour (a heavy plate armour should not allow to dodge as well as a light leather jerkin). Counting it twice is the only way to make something similar to weapon Def mod

 

[galloglaich]

Ok ok I'm just trying to understand the mechanic. Does everybody get both dodge and parry or is each defense type exclusive to a particular class?

Either way I think the solution is simpler. The weapons being based on real life weapons balance out in different ways, some are useful for defense, some aren't. The weapons which aren't useful for defense make it up by causing more damage or having better reach or speed (especially the latter).

I would say anyone depending on a 'Dodge' defense should just use weapons which have no defensive value. If you are halving the bonuses many weapons will not have any defensive value.

Of course if you want to double the Dex bonus on defense that is fine with me too

G.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Basically everybody can choice wether to use dodge or parry.

But somebody is better at dodging, others are better at parrying, according to their Str & Dex stats or the Class modifiers (e.g. a Pirate 3rd lev has dodge +2, parry +1 while a Soldier 3d level has dodge +1, parry +2).

Furthermore sometimes the situation says what kind of defense is the best one.
For example you cannot parry arrows with a shortsword...unless you have very, very, very special feats or special abilities, so it is better to dodge arrows.
.... or, for example if you are in a very small crampy place, you dodge with a penalty, so you are almost obliged to parry.

 

[galloglaich]

In that case I think what I said applies. Some weapons will give a bonus for parrying, but others which have no bonus for parry are good in other ways. So all you really have to do is halve the values. In fact I think you'll find this breaks down rather naturally into weapons suitable for the different Class archetypes.

For example weapons used on the steppe, sabers, light maces, hand-axes, lances, are not very good for parrying, whereas weapons used in Western Europe; rapiers, bastard swords, quarter staves etc., are good at parrying. This is because of two different styles of fighting, steppe nomads had a more hit and run approach, whereas European heavy cavalry and heavy infantry would stand and fight, as 'shock' cavalry for example, relying on armor, shields, and more protective weapons.



G.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm sorry S4, but this is not a solution for adapting the Codex to Conan rules in a balanced way.

I'm not sure I agree, since the range of the triple stats stays the same. But, let me hear your argument.

If you subtract -4 to every weapon defense (the third Weapon stat) you'll have that, since nearly all the Wepaon have defense bonus in the range of 1-3, ALMOST ALL the weapons gives you a penalty to Parry, rather than a Bonus.

You'll get the crazy situation of making dodging much worse than parrying!

Don't think I follow. Example, please.

Codex rules and Conan were designed with very different mind settings and if you want to fix a piece of the Codex into Conan you should consider all of the consequences that piece has on Conan.

Completely agree.

If you want to go on with your idea of -4, you maybe would give a -4 to dodge too, but even that is not a solution (!!), since it makes Dodge too weak in comparison to parry.

Well, let's look at this. Give me an example or two of why you think it wouldn't work well.

A modifier may or may not be appropriate for Dodging.

If anything, I think what to do with Dodge is to figure it normally, then add BAB -4. Viola, balanced game.

I gave to dodge a double Dex, sicne Dex is the variable (as weapon shape is a variable for parry).

I don't like the "double dipping" on DEX. No other rule in the game double dips like that. It seems like a maybe workable but non-intuitive, non-ellegant patch.

 

[Supplement Four]

In that case I think what I said applies. Some weapons will give a bonus for parrying, but others which have no bonus for parry are good in other ways. So all you really have to do is halve the values.

One of the bigger gripes about the Conan game, and d20 games in general, is that they tend to get unbalanced at the high levels. Thus there are d20 variants like E6. One difference in the Conan game is that it is set at stagnant levels, not dynamic character levels--meaning that the game world does not scale to the PCs as it does in many d20 games (You play a Level 1-3 adventure, and the town guard is level 1, but if you play a Level 6-10 adventure, the same town guardsmen are level 6. In Conan, the town guardsmen are the same level regardless of the PC level.).

Another difference in the Conan game is that, from the ways the rules are written, was designed to be played in the 1-10 range.

That aside, one of the bigger complaints is that, as a Conan character rises in level, it becomes almost impossible for him to miss in combat.

Plus, combat is very, very deadly.

So, if by using the -4 reduction to the Codex weapon triple numbers, it makes it harder to hit (by having weapon penalties on the attack throw), then that's a good thing for higher level play.

We definitely don't want to be adding numbers like +8 to the attack throw.

 

[LucaCherstich]

You'll get the crazy situation of making dodging much worse than parrying!

Don't think I follow. Example, please.

Come on, S4, it is so easy.
At that point you do not seemed to change Dodge while you wanted to subtract -4 to all weapon parry defense...(Broadsword Defense at -2, Kopis parrying at -3, etcc...is not so evident?)
Anyway, it looks like you realized it too, so you later added a mod to Dodge too, although it is still the wrong one...

If anything, I think what to do with Dodge is to figure it normally, then add BAB -4. Viola, balanced game.

So, at last, you gave a modifier to Dodge too!
Even so, I do not think your is a balanced version.
BAB get higher with higher level.
Weapon def mod does not.
With your system, higher level PCs will always prefer dodging over parrying, so your new solution is still not balanced!
Weapon Defense is a variable mod to parry which does not advances with levels.

You do not like doubling Dex mod?
Unelegant?
I do not think so, BAB-4 is more unelegant to me, and definitively unbalanced to parry.
In any case, OK, please, give me another Dodge mod but, IF YOU REALLY want to make a balanced couterpart to Weapon Defense mod, you should give a mod which is:

1) Realistic: a trait which really modifies dodging

2) not too variable with levels (the weapon mod to parry is not variable, while BAB is...OK, Dex can vary with levels...but at such a low rate, if compared to rapidly advancing BAB of warriors, that it is not so influent in statistical terms!)

3) variable in the same range of Weapon Defense Mod (the second Dex mod is so. Majority of people have Dex mods in range of 1-3)

4) Easy to think about and calculate

5) balanced with Weapon Defense Mod to Parry in the sense that the statistical relationship which now we have between Dodge & Parrying should not change (Double Dex mod does not change it, BAB -4 changes it A LOT)

Please, i pray you, give me a mod to Dodge which is really better than my doubling Dex.
I'll be happy to hear something which really answers to the above parameters.

 

[Supplement Four]

Please, i pray you, give me a mod to Dodge which is really better than my doubling Dex.
I'll be happy to hear something which really answers to the above parameters.

OK. I can do that. Whether you'll like it or not, I'm not sure. You make some great points, by the way. I don't agree with all of your stances, but I can see you're looking at the rules with a critical mind, and that's a good thing in my book.

Think about how the Parry rules change (with my -4 concept). We're using the standard Parry, with all usual modifiers, then adding a modifier for the weapon used.

I say that we do the same thing for Dodge. Consider the "weapon" of Dodge to have a +4 modifier. So, just figure Dodge normally, then add +4.

Your "personal variable" is in there with the original number. Add a flat +4. You're in good shape.

Now, you say you don't like that because it's a flat modifier. You don't "see" the act of Dodging as worthy of having a flat modifier when weapons have different modifiers.

OK.

Change it up a bit. It's easier to dodge withouot something big and heavy in your hands, right? How about base the Dodge modifeir on weight or weapon size.

Dodge with nothing or a light weapon? +4 to Dodge. Dodge with a One-Handed weapon? +2 to Dodge. Dodge with a Two-Handed weapon, no modifier to Dodge.

What are your thoughts on that?



Or....maybe base the Dodge modifier on the Reach of the opponent's weapon? He's got a Reach weapon? +0 to Dodge. Two-Handed weapon? +1 to Dodge. One-Handed weapon? +2 to Dodge. Light weapon or nothing? +4 to Dodge.

That second thought makes a lot of sense, eh? The shorter your foe's weapon, the easier it is for you to Dodge it?

 

[LucaCherstich]

S4, that's much better!
It looks like you start reasoning in a way I can understand!
I prefer the version with your own weapons (+4 light, +2 dodge, etc..) than the other one which implies much more complicated thoughts (Reach weapon should modify dodge only at their range...).
I was also thinking in terms of armour (but that is already included in the Max Dex penalty).

In any case, I really do not know wether it is really more difficult to dodge while wielding a broadsword in your hand than with a shortsword.
So broadsword wielders will more easily parry, while a shortsword wielder will more easily dodge. Is this scenario real?
Or is the weapon you have in your hand poorly influent in dodging?
A professional fighter with a bardiche, will he use it to parry, or is it easier for him to dodge?
These are questions for Galloglaich, the only one among us who experimented real techniques, if I'm not wrong!.
Please, answer!

Thinking in Conan rpg terms, the only real problem I have with your new idea is: what about Monsters and Beasts and their dodge?
I know there's a table for Claws & bites in the Codex, but it lacks Defense mods (and I'm happy about it: monsters more often dodge, rather than parry).
But if we need to modify the dodge value of a lion according to his natural weapons...is his bite a one-handed or two-handed weapon?
That's where your new suggestion fails.... or maybe we give him a +4 since he is kind of "Unarmed-armed with natural weapons"...I really do not know.

Another doubt: what about a 2-weapon fighter?
For example one with arming sword & dagger: will he add +2, +3, +4 or even 0 to his dodge?

Thus far, I'm still for the Double Dex, but I'll give a thought about your new suggestion, since it is teh one I like the most among all the things you proposed (and I wait especially for Galloglaich answering the above question).

 

[galloglaich]

My perception of the reality of fighting is, if you have a shield or a weapon with which you can displace or parry, you are much harder to hit. That is a simple fact.

That said there are MA systems where there is little parrying done. For example in Japanese fencing (kenjutsu, iado), there is far less emphasis on parrying than on voiding (dodging). In western fencing where there is more hand protection and the swords are more flexible there is more emphasis on aggressive parrying and simultaneous parry / cuts (the Mastercuts).

No I do not think it is any harder to void with a weapon than not to void; in fact there is another factor which may be more relevant to voiding than to parrying; assuming an intelligent opponent (i.e not a zombie or even some types of animals) the threat of counterattack will keep the opponent further away and more hesitant in their attacks, which actually makes dodging easier.

I understand this is a balance issue though. But I still stand by what I said earlier, (twice!) upthread, I think the only change you have to make is halve the 3 values (reach, speed and defense) then you will find many weapons have no defense bonus, and those which do often don't cause as much damage or have as much speed for example. So I don't see the problem, there is something for everybody.

Give the Barbarian a short-sword or a dagger, or an axe, or an eastern style saber, or a falchion. He'll be happy with it.

Give the Soldier a sidesword or a bastard sword or a pollaxe, he'll be happy with that.

G.

 

[Supplement Four]

My perception of the reality of fighting is, if you have a shield or a weapon with which you can displace or parry, you are much harder to hit. That is a simple fact.

I said it earlier in the thread, and I still think it now: I could see the weapon Parry modifier as a Defense modifier, added to both Parry and Dodge.

Then, the question becomes what to do with those who don't carry a weapon and are Dodging. I say give 'em +4 (using my -4 on the triple stats methodology) or otherwise let them use the Defense bonus of the weapon they carry.

But I still stand by what I said earlier, (twice!) upthread, I think the only change you have to make is halve the 3 values (reach, speed and defense)....

Why halve them when we can still get their full range of impact using the -4 modifier to them? I still say +4 to -4 for the triple stat ranges.

 

[galloglaich]

Why would you be at a disadvantage for using a weapon than for not having one?

G.