[CONAN] Interesting Weapon & Combat Model

If I make half all of the three values it will weaken the only factor for which your work really fascinates me: weapon variability.
And even so, with halved values, we will still have a slightly better Parry than Dodge, even if all the +2 to Defense become +1.
On the other hand, adding the Def bonus to dodge is for me senseless. Reading your book is so clear that the weapons with higher Def stats were made so fo their Parrying capacity.

In any case, I can understand what you say about realistic Parrying & Dodge (Void), and that parrying is very good in any case (if I well understood).

It is worth here saying that parry will alwys have more possibilities of having a bonus than dodge (for the shield and for the Def bonus of a off hand weapon).

In any case, as you also said, we need to see also some balance.
At this point I have only 2 rational options for balancing dodging with parrying (and I know none of them is perfectly realistic)

DODGE OPTION 1: adding Dex twice

DODGE OPTION 2: Adding a bonus according to the size of the Weapon you are wielding: +4 for light weapons wielder, +2 for one handed wepoan wileders, +0 to two-handed weapon wielders.

At this point it should be worth to quote here a piece from Conan rpg 2e, page 175 to better reason on this topic:

"In Conan the Roleplaying Game, every character must decide in combat whether to defend by Dodging or Parrying. Most characters will have a preferred method of defence and it is often easiest to assume that these preferred methods are in use each round unless the players specify otherwise.

It should be noted that the terms ‘parry’ and ‘dodge’ are inevitably abstractions. A character who is dodging is more likely to make use of his knowledge of his enemy’s reach to stay just out of distance than he is to simply hurl himself to one side. Likewise, though the word ‘parry’ is used because it is familiar to most gamers and fantasy fans, both Conan and real-world medieval fencing-masters would have been more familiar with the idea of ‘setting aside’ an enemy’s weapon – deflecting an attack so as to ensure it just misses, while setting oneself up to deliver a counterattack. Inevitably, the lines between parrying and dodging blur and many techniques will use a little of both.

Thus, declaring that one is parrying or dodging is more a reflection of combat style – either fluid and footwork-based, or aggressive and steadfast respectively – than a precise description of one’s actions."
 
galloglaich said:
Why would you be at a disadvantage for using a weapon than for not having one?

It can be argued weight and maneuverability. But, let's throw that out.

I'm OK adjusting DEX with a different modifier. The question is: What adjustment should be made that is balanced and logical with Weapon Defense stats?
 
LucaCherstich said:
DODGE OPTION 2: Adding a bonus according to the size of the Weapon you are wielding: +4 for light weapons wielder, +2 for one handed wepoan wileders, +0 to two-handed weapon wielders.

Instead of +4/+2/+0, we could also consider: +2/+1+/+0.

Depends on how hard the impact on Dodge should be.
 
S4, that dodge bonus in the range of 0-2 is definitively not comparable to Weapon Def Bonus to parry (0-5), unless you halve all triple stat bonus.
But I do not like that, since it weakens weapon variability.

Furthermore I start understanding Galloglaich's point that (if I well understood) wielding a zweihander or a knife does not makes difference in terms of dodge (but in terms of parry).

I know you do not like it but, at this point, I start thinking again to make a double Dex bonus to Dodge. That's the only possible solution to make something realistic and balanced to weapon Def parry bonus.
 
I think y'all are missing my point and really over-complicating this enormously.


On weight and dodge.

Almost all hand-weapons weighed in the same range, between two and four pounds for medium to long weapons (say a mace, a sword, or an axe), and all of them were balanced for warfare. Unless you are talking about using a farm tool for example. So a three pound thing in your hand to me is not going to significantly effect your ability to dodge and weave.

In fact if I'm threatening you with the point of a spear, I promise you I don't have to ever parry a single time, and I will be safer from your machete than if I don't have one. It will be much easier for me to dodge, because you are being very careful not to get stabbed in the face when you close in to cut me.

I'm not saying however that you should necessarily include weapon defense to dodge. I don't think in fact that you need to balance dodge.


Here are some specific examples, with stats from the Codex on top and then stats for Conan RPG (halved, rounded up) below:

Soldier Weapons

*Roundel Dagger 1/5/1 Damage 1-6
Conan Version 0/3/0

*Katzbalger 2/3/3 Damage 1-8
Conan version 1/2/2

*Sidesword 4/4/4 Damage 1-6
Conan version 2/2/2

*Longsword 5/2/4 Damage 1-10
Conan version 3/1/2

*Pollaxe 6/1/5 Damage 1-12
Conan version 3/0/3



Barbarian Weapons

*Jambaiya Dagger 0/5/0 Damage 1-6
Conan version 0/3/0

*Leaf Blade sword 3/1/1 Damage 1-10
Conan version 2/1/0

*Falchion 3/1/2 Damage 1-12
Conan version 2/0/1

*Sparth Axe 6/-1/1 Damage 3-18
Conan version 3/0/0 + "hook" capability

*Heavy Flail 4/1/1 Damage 1-12
Conan versio0n 2/0/0

*Spear 8/0/2 Damage 1-8
4/0/1 Conan


I don't know if you have armor piercing or not (I assume you do) but the flail, the roundel dagger and the pollaxe would be effectively armor-piercing weapons.

So you can see clearly I think, you still have a variety of weapons with different characteristics or 'personalities', most of the ones a Barbarian would use have little to no defensive capabilities, but cause more damage and / or have better reach. The soldiers weapons have a slight edge in defense and speed but not as much damage. I think it's an even trade off.


Or maybe you are not factoring in damage perhaps?

Doubling the Dex bonus for dodge seems fine to me in terms of game balance if you want to make dodge as good as parrying in all cases, but the existing historical variety in the weapons really handles that for you without giving an (unrealistic) advantage to those who don't parry.


G.
 
Translating weapon to Conan is slightly more complex than that, since Conan weapons should have higher dmg (or sometimes the same dmg but higher critical threat ranges) and consider AP too.
For example, you division between spear & hewing spear consider the difference in dmg (1d8 and 1d10) + weapon attacks type (Slashing added to Piercing), but you could make hewing spear more threatening even with a higher crit range (e.g. 18-20/x2).

These days I'm trying to convert something (I'll send you soon my proposal conversion).

In any case, going back to rules, I think that I will:

1) Keep the triple stats as they are (I really do not see reason to halve them).

2) Use double Dex to dodge. My first intution I think was right (weapon shape influences parry, body agility influences dodge).
 
If you are trying to determine crit threat range, the weapons with more Primary Attack types should have a better crit threat range.

G.
 
I like you idea on primary but I cannot apply to convert Conan since the original author did not think about it...unless I really want to transform everything!!
In Conan Core Rules the Scimitar (Codex: 1 primary atk) has a threat range greater than Broadsword (Codex: 2 primary atks): which is just the opposite of what you say!
 
New SHIELDS for your CONAN game.



I've looked at the shields on page 60 of the Codex's first vol., and to my surprise, they're 80-90% plug-n-play with Conan equipment.

The core Conan 2E rulebook gives us 3 general shield types. If you use the Codex, you can expand this to 16 different, specific shields, and importing them into your game is extremely easy. Now, you'll have access to the Greek Aspis, the Ottoman shield, and the Norman Kyte shield, among many others.

To convert...

Cost: Consider the cost is sp instead of gp. For example, the Roman Scutum is listed as 30 gp in the Codex. This shield type should would have a base cost of 30 sp in the Conan game.
The costs for the three shields listed in the Conan game are listed at similar amounts in the Codex.

CONAN - Shields
Buckler = 5 sp
Large Shield = 7 sp
Targe = 3 sp

CODEX - Shields
Buckler = 2-8 gp
Viking Roundshield = 6 gp
Scottish Targe = 5 gp

I think these prices are all in the same ballpark. Just convert to sp and use the base price in the Codex.





Defense Bonus: These look to be completely compatible with the Conan game. Use them as-is.


CONAN - Defense Bonus
Buckler = +2
Large Shield = +4
Targe = +3

CODEX - Defense Bonus
Buckler = +2
Viking Roundshield = +4
Scottish Targe = +3





Armor Check Penalty: Use these as listed in the Codex.

CONAN - Armor Check Penalty
Buckler = -1
Large Shield = -4
Targe = -2

CODEX - Armor Check Penalty
Buckler = -1
Viking Roundshield = -5
Scottish Targe = -2





Weight: Use the weight as listed in the Codex.

What's neat and useful is that the Codex lists the materials from which the shield is made.

CONAN - Weight
Buckler = 2 lbs.
Large Shield = 8 lbs.
Targe = 4 lbs.

CODEX - Weight
Buckler = 1-4.5 lbs.
Viking Roundshield = 3 lbs.
Scottish Targe = 5 lbs.





Hardness and Hit Points: Here, the GM may want to make a conversion adjustments on an individual shield basis. The Codex takes the stance that shields are more fragile than what is represented in the Conan game. Hardness (Toughness in the Codex) tends to be a smaller number than what is shown in Conan, but each shield tends to have more hit points.

You'll have to make a judgement call on whether you want to go with the straight Codex numbers or do some eyeballing with the Conan shields and adjust the Codex numbers a bit.

The Codex numbers are definitely useable without tweaking if you can accept that shields are a tad weaker than what is presented in Conan.

Again, the Codex Shield table lists the materials from which the shield was made, so that will help you if you convert.

In general, to convert, what I would do is subtract a few points from the Codex shield's HP and add the same amount of points to the shield's Hardness. And, don't forget to consider the shield's material when making this judgment call.

CONAN - Hardness/Hit Points
Buckler = Hardness 10, Hit Points 2
Large Shield = Hardness 6, Hit Points 10
Targe = Hardness 6, Hit Points 6

CODEX - Hardness/Hit Points
Buckler = Hardness 4-8, Hit Points 4-16
Viking Roundshield = Hardness 3, Hit Points 10
Scottish Targe = Hardness 3, Hit Points 6







Minimum Strength: The Codex has a neat little shield stat that you can consider as an optional rule. Each shield comes with a minimum STR stat. needed to use the shield effectively in combat. You can decide whether to ignore this number or implement the rule into your game.





Sorcery Failure: The Codex doesn't list this stat. For an easy conversion, though, just use one of the three Conan numbers. For very small, buckler sized shields, use 20%. For the Targe sized shields, use 30%. For the Large Shields, use 15%.

The Codex gives you a Size category (Tiny - Small - Medium - Large), but don't forget to consider the shield's weight and material.

You might want to rate some shields as 25%, too, if you deem it appropriate.





Damage: The Codex doesn't list shield damage, but this is super easy to convert. Just pick the Conan shield that the is closest to the shield you are trying to convert and use that Damage rating.




Critical: All shields do a Critical Threat on a natural 20, and Critical Damage is x2.



Armor Piercing: Depending on the materials, some bucklers can be rated at AP 1. Most other shields, though, will not have an AP rating.





Type: All un-enhanced shields (those withotu spikes or other modifications) do Bludgeoning type damage.







EXAMPLE:

Let's say we're playing through Mongoose's Tales of the Black Kingdoms adventure campaign, and we want to import the Zulu Shield into our Conan campaign.

The base cost on this shield is 3 sp.

This shield provides a +5 Defense Bonus. I think this is a bit high, but see my note below.

The armor check penalty for this shield is -5.

This shield weighs 2 lbs.

I'm going to go with the Codex listed stats for this shield because, looking at the materials that make up this shield (Animal hide or leather stretched over a wicker, wooden, bone, horn, or metal frame. Some of these shields have a wicker structure filling the frame.) and it's weight, it seems reasonable to me that the shield would be easily destroyed by modern day Hyborian Age weaponry. I'll stick with the Hardness 2 and Hit Points 5.

I probably won't use the optional minimum STR rule, but it's there and neat if I change my mind. Min STR 7 for this shield.

Now, we've got to add a few things that aren't in the Codex.

Sorcery Failure: I'll give it same as Conan Large Shields. 15% Sorcery Failure.

Damage: Normally, I'd give this shield a 1d4 damage die like other Conan Large Shields. But, judging by this shield's weight and materials, this shield is light but bulky. I'm going to get a tad creative and give the shield a 1d5 damage die (1d10 / 2, drop fractions, minimum 1).

Critical: This shield's Critical Threat occurs on a natural 20, and Critical damage is x2.

Armor Piercing: This shield does not have an AP rating.

Type: This shield does Blunt damage when used as a weapon.



Note on the +5 Defense Bonus: I kept this because I can see the shield to be light and extremely flexible with its wicker core. When a blow strikes it, the shield acts to absorb and spread the blow's energy out along the shield.

Although this shield gives excellent protection in the way of the +5 defense modifier, the shield is also extremely easy to be destroyed in combat.

Other GMs may want to lower the protection rating on this shield if the +5 seems unrealistic.

Viloa! We have a new shield for our Conan game!
 
Looking at the Codex Martialis' shield fighting page 30 I've noticed that you actually NEED a feat to sum up Weapon Def + Shield Def.
Do you think we need that to Conan too?
Is it so difficult to parry with both weapon and shield to need a Feat?
If so, I have a new line of thought: we should add nothing as a second bonus to Dodge to balance with parry since Weapon defense to parry becomes just an alternative to shield defense, unless you get that feat.

HOWEVER, I'm not so sure if I want to introduce this feat, but I want to hear your ideas about it.
The point is that the main advantage of a shield is that it adds a parry bonus to your weapon parry bonus.
Without that, we get the crazy situation of quarterstaff (Defense +5) parrying better than Viking shields (Defense +4).
If the viking shield user can add the parry bonus of shield & weapon together, certainly the balance between quarterstaff & shield will be fixed.

p.s.
I've also seen that you actually need another feat (Niten Ichi) to sum up 2 weapon defenses in the two-weapon fighting (Codex p.36)...
 
Don't forget that in the Codex, using any type of shield gives you a 'free dice' on Active Defense. Not sure how that would factor in to the Conan rules, though on average a Free Dice (rolling two and keeping the highest) works out to roughly a +4 on your die roll on average.

But you only get that bonus if you have MP remaining to spend on Active Defense.

G.
 
SO, at the end, since there is no free dice rule in Conan (unless we really want to heavily change the system) adding shield & weapon Def bonus WITHOUT the feat sounds balanced to me.
And I still will add double dex to dodge.
 
Ok, fine with me.

Can you explain why adding a 'Free Dice' in a few circumstances would "heavily change" the system? I don't understand that.

G.
 
because that's a mechanic which is not included in the original pack.
And especially because, unlike the Codex, defenses in Conan are ALWAYS fixed, never to be rolled (Dodge & Parry are fixed values, as the old AC of D&D), do there is no free defense dice, sicne there is no defense dice at all!
I like using what I can from Codex Martialis to Conan rpg, but I do not want another roll for defense.
 
LucaCherstich said:
Looking at the Codex Martialis' shield fighting page 30 I've noticed that you actually NEED a feat to sum up Weapon Def + Shield Def.
Do you think we need that to Conan too?

Conan has a Shield Proficiency Feat, so I think that's covered.

Also, I'm with you, Luca. I don't think we need to change the Conan shield rules at all. The "free dice" concept is cool, but I don't think that the normal Conan shield rules need to be added to or changed.
 
@galloglaich

Why does the Zulu Shield have a defense bonus +5? It's so light and frail, I would think the protection would be less.

Is it because of what I suggest in the Example above? That the shield's wicker core acts to absorb and spread the energy of an attack? Or is it simply due to the shield's size?
 
LucaCherstich said:
And especially because, unlike the Codex, defenses in Conan are ALWAYS fixed, never to be rolled...

Just FYI, we've been using Active Defense in our game for a year now. As you know, it's a standard d20 variant mentioned in the 3.5 E DMG.

It's quite fun. I highly recommend it.

We're also using the Facing Rules. I'm about to implement them during our next game.
 
Supplement Four said:
@galloglaich

Why does the Zulu Shield have a defense bonus +5? It's so light and frail, I would think the protection would be less.

Is it because of what I suggest in the Example above? That the shield's wicker core acts to absorb and spread the energy of an attack? Or is it simply due to the shield's size?

The size, plus the lightness and maneuverability of it. They are a bit tougher than they look, but the defense value is due to the size. You can destroy or punch through a shield by defeating it's toughness and HP, which is fairly easy with a zulu sheld.

The fact is most historical shields were pretty lightly built, with the exception of the old Greek Aspis / Hoplon, Medieval steel bucklers and the later steel shields of the Renaissance.

But for example Viking shields were typically of 3/8" Linden wood which is quite light wood, with a metal boss and usually a rawhide covered rim.

G.
 
I do not know about rolling defenses.

I do not know why, but my stories always end up with huge combat scenes with my PCs and allies fighting vs 20 enemies or more...

I fear rolling each defense would slow us.

And in any case, I want my players to first learn the triple stats before adding other stuff.
 
Supplement Four said:
New SHIELDS for your CONAN game.



I've looked at the shields on page 60 of the Codex's first vol., and to my surprise, they're 80-90% plug-n-play with Conan equipment.

It's funny how great minds think alike eh?

Actually to me this just shows that Mongoose did their research well. I already knew I'd done mine well :)

G.
 
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