Codes of Honor, Bogus Freebie for Will save?

[Spectator]

Something I never really thought about until recently, when talk about will saves heated up here recently on the forum.
"a +3 Will save bonus, or +6 for Corruption saves" for having one (a code of honor) seems rather excessive, i'm just looking at the Fighter and Fighter subtypes; they only encounter a +3 bonus when they reach 9th level. Essentially you are giving the beginning player a 9th level saving throw.



I am trying to think where else in the book such a freebie is granted.
Why is such a giant freebie granted, why would knowing 'right from wrong' save our PCs any better than our not so ethical PCs from an Entrance spell?

The more I think about it, I could see it appyling to corruption saves (although I still think +6 is pretty high, equicalent of an 18th level will save on the fighter progression table) and maybe on some types of Will Saves (in case if your dealing with a temptress and your PC is a happily married man (yeah right?)). But why would honor give you a resistance to magic?

If anyone can help me see the light on this let me know. I think its a cute mechanic designed to give a leg up to our Fighter types, and basically screw over the sorcerors, temptresses, and other rogues who depend on less direct forms than blades to make their attacks.

Why would an honorable character be less susceptible to a con-man? I could conjecture that an honorable person would be more trusting and assume that if the Con-man gave his oath (successful Buff roll), then he would be trusted, since the honorable character would believe that oaths are sacred and binding, therefore the con-mans swindle seems like a profitable venture?
Like I said, pure conjecture, but it gives me an Idea that honorable people may be more susceptible being swindled, maybe even a reduced a saving throw?

The reputation bonus of +2, I think is perfectly fine. But for ALL will saves it seems pretty overpowered, no?


How many GMs or players think I'm nuts on this?

 

[Damien]

Why would an honorable character be less susceptible to a con-man?

To paraphrase Lord of the Rings': "The Men of Rohan do not lie, and so are not easily deceived."

Of course, I'm not sure how this part is pertinent at all. If someone attempts a Bluff check, you do not use a Will Save against it. And a Code does not grant any benefit to your Sense Motive check.

But why would honor give you a resistance to magic?

I think it's a good mechanic that makes sense. In the world of Hyboria, as in most fantasy settings, belief is extremely powerful. Belief can make men follow psychotic voodoo priests through the jungle, flanked by giant snakes and sabre-tooth tigers.

To me, the Code of Honour system isn't just about "is your character honourable." The Code of Honour system is about 'does your character have such a force of belief in this ethical system that he would die before being untrue to it."

So his resistance does not come from the subjective concept of 'honour' - but rather from the fact that he is such a stoic person in general - that his righteousness in some form pervades his very being and lends him strength to be greater than he otherwise would be. His -willpower- is unshakeable, and therefore effects that test his willpower are less dangerous to him.

So perhaps the question shouldn't be "is the bonus too big to Will saves" but rather "is it appropriate that certain spells and effects require a Will save instead of something else - would willpower make this much of a difference."

 

[Ichabod]

I despise the code of honor rules and find it ludicrous that a freebie is far more powerful than a feat. At a minimum, I'd remove the bonus to normal Will saves, a +2 or 3 to corruption is probably tolerable.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I like the CoH rules. Damien has explained it pretty well.

As for the power of freebies: if you pick the right religion, you also get a +2 to Will just for paying a couple silver, which essentially is also a freebie. And there are no further strings attached. IMHO this is even more "bang for the buck" than CoH, because a Code directly influences your actions.

From a game balance standpoint, the CoH is perfectly fine and not at all overpowered: it is there to replace all those magical rings, amulets and cloaks that are a dime a dozen and push your Saves through the ceiling in D&D.

CoH is no "freebie"; if you read through the various campaign logs posted here, you'll find that a lot of characters can't live up to their code and accordingly lose it during the first sessions.

It's a good thing that this thread showed up today, because I also have a question about Codes of Honour, especially about losing them:

When your players announce an action that goes against their characters' CoH, how do you react?
- warn them that this action would make them lose their Honour, and allow them to reconsider and take a different action,
- simply let them run into the open knife and announce afterwards that they have just lost their Honour,
- or let them get away with it once or twice, but warn them that they'll lose their Honour if it happens again.

I think I'd go for the first option. A character with a CoH will know what he or can't do, but a player may first have to get a feel for it, especially early in the game. So you basically give him a Jiminy Cricket.

 

[Spectator]

Back to the original gist of my question; the bonus size effectively allows a fighter subtype to have the equivalent of a 9th level saving throw. Clovenhoof, thanks for mentioning 'Faith' that's also a giant bonus for several S.P. / month.

I have to admit, that a man of great faith should receive some bonus, a +1, but as it stands now a low level mook who has 'faith' and a CoH gets a +5 will save, equivalent to a 10th or 11th level sorceror (dont have the book before me, sorry for the innaccuracies).

OK yeah, I'm griping about it, and sure I could house-rule, but I was just curious to see how all you felt about.

 

[Etepete]

To us, CoH has a huge impact on play. It fits the genre very well, so we dont have any prob. fitting it into roleplay seamlessly. It actually works too well, to the point of characters killing each other...

 

[Vortigern]

I'd second you on giving the players a warning Clovenhoof, and for precisely the same reasoning... plus a bit extra. When dealing with things such as honor and ethics people IRL often have trouble arriving at a tolerable consensus much less simply agreeing on anything there involved. Therefore another scenario may actually be that a player believes their action to be in accordance with their code of honor while the GM doesn't... a difference of perception that could lead to troublesome eventualities if not identified -before- actual consequences begin to be felt.

Of course the flipside to that is one shouldn't really bog down the game with a discussion of this nature in the middle of combat for example. I'd give the warning, then if there is any dispute say this was my ruling for the scene... but I'll be open for discussion later when it doesn't slow the game for everyone.

As for the inclusion, or not, of such 'freebie' bonuses...

I'd say as long as they are equally available to all character types, and thus the access to them is evenly applied, it's fine. It may go against the concept as intended... but an example of such equal access would be to grant the 'Faith' and 'Honor' bonuses to your stereotypical Stygian Setite Scholar. A faithful follower of Set who is rather fervent in adhering to the teaching's of it's moral and spiritual doctrine ( such as it is ). The emphasis is on the existence and adherence to some form of code of behavior, imho, rather than that code being 'good' in it's outlook.

Evil men have will as much as good men. Sometimes greater. They wouldn't be interesting plot-fodder otherwise.

I suppose the point of that is that the behavioral restricitons and bonuses, as an option to take, should be available to all types of characters... and that if the option is there... and the playing field level, then it shouldn't be troublesome.

 

[Jeffreywns]

In our campaign the only character that started with a code of honor (the Vanir barbarian) lost it when faced with the consequences of living by it. The other group members play the typical adventurer alignment of "Chaotic Greedy" . That bonus comes with a tough standard to follow for the typical player who's character normaly has turned his/her back on the tribe/feudal system/family obligation that raised them and follows the code in general.

 

[Clovenhoof]

A faithful follower of Set who is rather fervent in adhering to the teaching's of it's moral and spiritual doctrine ( such as it is ).

Note that Set does not offer the benefit of Faith. I guess you need to have Faith in a deity considered to be benevolent and/or merciful for it to have any impact on your willpower.

Here is a list of deities and pantheons that offer the benefit of Faith:

Asura, Bori, Ibis, Khitan Pantheon, Mitra, Hyrkanian Pantheon, Ymir, Zamorian Pantheon.

That's a pretty thin list.
Then there's also Crom, who has a special position: he grants +1 to Will, as long as you don't worship non-Cimmerian gods. I don't quite see the difference to Faith, but whatever.

 

[argo]

Nah, the Code of Honor rules are just fine as-is. Consider that all of the "fighting classes" have a poor will save to begin with, then consider the effect of multi-classing between poor saves. Just as an example Soldier 2/Thief 2/Nomad 2 has a base Will save of +0 at 6th level.

Sure you can go the opposite direction... A "Knight of Pontain" might be a Soldier 3/Noble 2, with Civilized Code, Faith in Mitra and the Iron Will feat as a bonus feat this guy has a base Will save of +11 at 5th level. "Forth and fear no darkness" indeed! 8)

But overall I have not noticed any undue problems with Honor to date, and I've had several players with Honor (plus a couple with No Honor, but that's a different story.... )

Why is such a giant freebie granted, why would knowing 'right from wrong' save our PCs any better than our not so ethical PCs from an Entrance spell?

The more I think about it, I could see it appyling to corruption saves (although I still think +6 is pretty high, equicalent of an 18th level will save on the fighter progression table) and maybe on some types of Will Saves (in case if your dealing with a temptress and your PC is a happily married man (yeah right?)). But why would honor give you a resistance to magic?

As for this, it is a genre convention. Honorable warriors do not fall before foul magic but cut through it with clean steel. It goes hand in hand with the "wholsome barbarians >> decedant civilization" meme.

Hope that helps.

 

[DasClay]

Argo, Your right the PC im playing (when we get to play) is a 3Soldier/2Noble at this time, and he has a code of honor and follows Mitra as well.

This is the only way to get a decent will save, because you get crap for multiclassing Soldier and Noble.

This is the only useful way to be a effective fighter against the twisted Chuthulu Hordes, and misguided Occultist that plague the land!

 

[Clovenhoof]

"Forth and fear no darkness" indeed! 8)

DEEEEEAAAAAAATH!
DEEEEEAAAAAAATH!
DEEEEEAAAAAAATH!

My absolute favourite scene. =)

But don't forget either:

"You soldiers of Gondor! No matter what comes through that gate, you will stand your ground!"

 

[Jakusotsu]

The bonus from Faith and the bonus from Code of Honor are both Morale bonuses, and so do not stack, if I recall correctly.

 

[Spectator]

Kinda interesting reading a lot of responses here. I came away with the feeling that messing with CoH and Faith was bad since it would affect their player, more than CoH and Faith were a tad overpowered. Argo had some sound reasoning but no one seemed to address the inequity it had on the game by having such a humongous bonus for pennies a month.


After thinking about it, why would Conan have a CoH after he effectively abandoned his tribe for the decadent luxury of the southern lands. Essentially Cimmeria us a land of violence and force to survive whether its cattleraiding Cimmerians, Slave raiding Vanir and Hyperboreans, Encroaching Aquilonian troops, or wandering Pictish mischief makers; by Conan reuniting with his peeps during his journey north in the time frame of The FrostGiants Daughter and then getting back to the southern lands for more fun, wine, and women, he effectively puts his clan/tribe at a great disadvantage by his lack of being there since he is such a mighty warrior. IMHO a very good rationale for losing his CoH.


It seems logical to say that Conan should keep his CoH after being snatched by Slavers as a young adult (an involuntary circumstance), but as soon as he goes back to Cimmeria, and then high-tails it out of there for the luxuries of the south (a voluntary action), he effectively puts his peeps in a worse situation by not having his sword arm there.

How do you guys deal with your barbarian PCs and their CoHs if they never want to return home and benefit their tribe?

On flip side why shouldn't sorcerors who take the priest skill get a magic attack bonus against all these CoH and Faith based PCs. The logic of the majority here seems to be 'god is on your side' and 'gentlemen have it easier' so why not let the more devout scholar with the priest feat get a bonus after all he knows his magic more divinely inspired than the 'independent' scholar?

 

[Clovenhoof]

Hmmmm, very good point about both Honour and Faith being morale bonuses. Bonuses of the same type (except dodge) do not stack - but you'll know this only if you are familiar with the SRD. Afaik the rule isn't printed in the Core book, though it's safe to assume that the rule is meant to be maintained, otherwise there would be no reason to name the bonuses by type.

After thinking about it, why would Conan have a CoH after he effectively abandoned his tribe for the decadent luxury of the southern lands.

I don't see that at all. It's not like he's abandoning them in the middle of a war. It's also not like he is the only one technically able to leave the land. In fact, I've rather wondered why the Cimmerians, fighting machines that they are, never bothered to migrate to (and conquer) a more hospitable land.

The sample Barbaric Code in the book lists two rules that could potentially apply:
- protect those who are in need, if requested. Either the typical Cimmerian is not in need, or nobody requested Conan to remain.
- never desert henchmen or retainers -- but his tribe are neither.

Now if he was currently in Cimmeria when a serious force attacked his tribe, well, THEN he would be obliged to stay and fight until the threat is neutralized, and I don't doubt that he would. So if he left his people in the lurch in such a situation, then he might lose his Honour.

 

[Spectator]

Well, of course not, Conan would never run away during a tribal war, but the converse logic is: when Conan leaves his tribe is more likely to fall victim to an attack or they will be able to cattle-raid less effectively therefore jeopardizing the protein requirements of his tribe.

Conan, by his virtue of being there probably prevents other tribes from messing with his dudes, but as soon as they know he's left for Koth, If I were the other tribe the raiding would begin.

So you can be absolutley right: he would never leave his peeps during a dangerous situation, but leaving when things are peaceful, may mean danger is soon to come?

 

[Krushnak]

Conan, by his virtue of being there probably prevents other tribes from messing with his dudes, but as soon as they know he's left for Koth, If I were the other tribe the raiding would begin.

most other cimmerian tribes likely dont even know who he is, let alone what his exploits are in the southern lands. one less warrior out of a couple of hundred is no more reason to sharpen the swords than any other to cimmerians i would assume.

anyways the CoH isn't a freebie, you can lose it and it forces the character to behave and do things in a certain way to keep the bonus, a feat like iron will doesnt. i find it to be one of those really cool things Conan has brought to d20, unlike d@d where being honourable meant absolutely nothing and was no benefit at all.

for both faith and CoH i usually keep a tally of black marks- 3 is the limit- and will tell the player when they are doing something that would gain them one, on the other hand the player can remove the black marks by doing something particularly honourable based on their own code which doesnt require me prodding them towards it or it being over thought. however doing something like having friendly contact with a demon while being a mitra worshipper immeadiately removes that faith bonus.

 

[Clovenhoof]

@Spectator: and if Conan indeed is so renowned that his tribe wouldn't get attacked as long as he is around, that protection would also still be in place when he is not there. Any chieftain can reckon by his fingers and toes that Conan will return some day and, if anything bad happened to his clan, call down a mighty reckoning on the offenders.

@Krushnak: so do I understand this right, they can violate their CoH as long as they can take another black mark? I don't know. I see what you are trying to do, but it may result in a "Rubber Honour" that players can wantonly stretch when it suits them. "Oh, he is pretty honourable, he only betrayed an employer once for a better offer and left a friend in the lurch another time, soas long as he doesn't screw up again before doing something really noble, his honour is intact."

 

[Krushnak]

well considering it takes about 4 points of corruption till it starts to be hard to maintain a CoH there is a certain amount of leeway when dealing with honour seeing as it is such a subjective idea. the players dont even know about my black marks system, it's just something for me to use to keep a track on things and if i say they lose their honour and they try to argue about i have some real reasons and not just. i am the gm. cause i hate using that too much and i know i hate it too much when im a player.

 

[argo]

The bonus from Faith and the bonus from Code of Honor are both Morale bonuses, and so do not stack, if I recall correctly.

Hunh, I forgot that they were morale bonuses. Thought that they were unnamed bonuses (unnamed bonuses stack).

Thats what I get for posting at work.