Clans of the Aslan - has just arrived!

[Condottiere]

1. I don't have the book, so I can only speculate.

2. It's possible that a male could perform roles that are supposedly feminine, whether business or administration.

3. Likewise for females.

4. Societies that tend to strictly separate them, might have mechanisms where this is facilitated, especially during a crisis.

5. In theory, with more females than males, all the males should be able to find a partner.

6. The question would be, if the females have expectations of the males, before they will partner up with them, that need to be fulfilled.

7. While statistically, there are plenty of less demanding fish in the sea, there might be social pressure where the male needs to be able to be perceived to physically be able to possibly deliver on these expectations.

8. One reason that some couples refuse to marry.

9. Or, if they do, don't plan on having offspring.

 

[Arkathan]

5. In theory, with more females than males, all the males should be able to find a partner.

Since polygamy is a thing, why settle for a slug when you can aspire to mediocrity or greater?
A female who settles for an unworthy partner dooms her offspring to a similarly low status.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Since polygamy is a thing, why settle for a slug when you can aspire to mediocrity or greater?
A female who settles for an unworthy partner dooms her offspring to a similarly low status.

This.

 

[Condottiere]

The number doubles, if you count mothers in law.

 

[Vormaerin]

Since polygamy is a thing, why settle for a slug when you can aspire to mediocrity or greater?
A female who settles for an unworthy partner dooms her offspring to a similarly low status.

There is always going to be an element of that. But polygamy is not unlimited. And it does go both ways. High status mothers are not going to be arranging for their sons to marry low status women unless they bring exceptional talents that outweigh the benefits of marital alliance with other high status families. And there may be elements of being mistress of your own family instead of the third wife of a wealthier household. Polygamous societies in human cultures tended to have pretty strict rankings "Senior wife, junior wife, etc" and/or vicious household politics over whose children got preference. Aslan may have that trait or they may be more "our children" than "my child". Some human cultures do that fairly successfully. No reason an alien one couldn't do it even better.

And Aslan presumably make dumb emotional decisions as much as anyone else.

 

[Terry Mixon]

There is always going to be an element of that. But polygamy is not unlimited. And it does go both ways. High status mothers are not going to be arranging for their sons to marry low status women unless they bring exceptional talents that outweigh the benefits of marital alliance with other high status families. And there may be elements of being mistress of your own family instead of the third wife of a wealthier household. Polygamous societies in human cultures tended to have pretty strict rankings "Senior wife, junior wife, etc" and/or vicious household politics over whose children got preference. Aslan may have that trait or they may be more "our children" than "my child". Some human cultures do that fairly successfully. No reason an alien one couldn't do it even better.

And Aslan presumably make dumb emotional decisions as much as anyone else.

The book says that all children are considered the children of the father and all the female wives, so that makes that less problematic. I haven't read anything yet about how the husband is managed for the wives' needs.

 

[Arkathan]

There is always going to be an element of that. But polygamy is not unlimited. And it does go both ways. High status mothers are not going to be arranging for their sons to marry low status women unless they bring exceptional talents that outweigh the benefits of marital alliance with other high status families. And there may be elements of being mistress of your own family instead of the third wife of a wealthier household. Polygamous societies in human cultures tended to have pretty strict rankings "Senior wife, junior wife, etc" and/or vicious household politics over whose children got preference. Aslan may have that trait or they may be more "our children" than "my child". Some human cultures do that fairly successfully. No reason an alien one couldn't do it even better.

And Aslan presumably make dumb emotional decisions as much as anyone else.

The salient point is that there may be plenty of fish in the sea, but if you really suck, there will be none for thee.
An Aslan female is better off running a business unmarried, or caring for children in a clan creche than consorting with base, unworthy males.

 

[Vormaerin]

Depends on what you mean by "base, unworthy males". Outcasts, criminals, and clanless types? Definitely. Clan members with relatively low standing (Soc 3-5)? Not really, especially if you are middle or low status already. The husband's status has to be pretty substantially worse than bride's family for it hurt her own standing in a meaningful way. Depending on her birth family's interest in her goals, a hard working cooperative husband with a little less status who is supportive may be better than trying to get a brother's or higher status husband's wife to back her up.

But as far as children go, the Aslan are not a caste system and they don't have this wealth fetish humans have. Clan members in good standing are clan members in good standing. A young Aslan's parentage has an slight effect on the test of worthiness that sets them up for their future careers, but it is a pretty minor difference if you are not noble born. Your other capacities are far more impactful than whether your parents were lower class or middle class by Aslan standards.

And once you are in your career, with the exception of a few high prestige careers like priest and envoy, your birth status has basically no effect and you can rise as high as you have the talent for, up to and including getting Territory and noble status.

Aristocratic women have a lot to lose with bad marriages, but middle and lower class women not so much.

 

[Arkathan]

Depends on what you mean by "base, unworthy males". Outcasts, criminals, and clanless types? Definitely.

Boom. Thank you for agreeing with me and proving the point.

 

[Vormaerin]

Just being clear that you meant clanless types, not just low end clan members. I've seen that suggested as well.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[MasterGwydion]

Depends on what you mean by "base, unworthy males". Outcasts, criminals, and clanless types? Definitely. Clan members with relatively low standing (Soc 3-5)? Not really, especially if you are middle or low status already. The husband's status has to be pretty substantially worse than bride's family for it hurt her own standing in a meaningful way. Depending on her birth family's interest in her goals, a hard working cooperative husband with a little less status who is supportive may be better than trying to get a brother's or higher status husband's wife to back her up.

But as far as children go, the Aslan are not a caste system and they don't have this wealth fetish humans have. Clan members in good standing are clan members in good standing. A young Aslan's parentage has an slight effect on the test of worthiness that sets them up for their future careers, but it is a pretty minor difference if you are not noble born. Your other capacities are far more impactful than whether your parents were lower class or middle class by Aslan standards.

I think we may be thinking too human here with Our concepts of Aslan nobility. The more I learn about the Aslan, the more I feel that the descriptions for TER and SOC by their levels, the more I feel that these are poor anthropologists not realizing that Aslan don't actually have nobles. They have heads of families. The head of a Pride is still also just the head of a family. Same with the head of a Clan. It is like Mongoose chose to explain to Us in terms of nobles because they didn't realize that the society that they were writing for was tribal, not feudal. They explained a tribal society, feudally. If you look at it like that, it makes much more sense. Humans don't consider the heads of Aslan Families important enough to be what humans would consider to be a noble until that Family Head has control of at least several square kilometers, but that Family Head of only 1,000m2 of land is every bit as proud and as arrogant as any human noble.

And once you are in your career, with the exception of a few high prestige careers like priest and envoy, your birth status has basically no effect and you can rise as high as you have the talent for, up to and including getting Territory and noble status.

Aristocratic women have a lot to lose with bad marriages, but middle and lower class women not so much.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I think we may be thinking too human here with Our concepts of Aslan nobility. The more I learn about the Aslan, the more I feel that the descriptions for TER and SOC by their levels, the more I feel that these are poor anthropologists not realizing that Aslan don't actually have nobles. They have heads of families. The head of a Pride is still also just the head of a family. Same with the head of a Clan. It is like Mongoose chose to explain to Us in terms of nobles because they didn't realize that the society that they were writing for was tribal, not feudal. They explained a tribal society, feudally. If you look at it like that, it makes much more sense. Humans don't consider the heads of Aslan Families important enough to be what humans would consider to be a noble until that Family Head has control of at least several square kilometers, but that Family Head of only 1,000m2 of land is every bit as proud and as arrogant as any human noble.

On a tangent, in reading Clans of the Aslan, I found anther prestigious university for you.

 

[MasterGwydion]

On a tangent, in reading Clans of the Aslan, I found anther prestigious university for you.

View attachment 3254

Nice! Good catch! Thank you!

 

[Anstett]

The book says that all children are considered the children of the father and all the female wives, so that makes that less problematic. I haven't read anything yet about how the husband is managed for the wives' needs.

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Has some thoughts on how the females would organize towards those needs.

 

[G'Naakbusters]

I've discovered something interesting, and maybe something of an addendum to all the information on the Zodia and non-biological Aslan clans given in this book.

Looking over the sector data for Riftspan Reaches in The Traveller's Digest 19, there are small Chirper populations listed for two Hierate worlds in relative proximity across the Great Rift. Both these worlds are non-hospitable, so the Chirpers can't be "native"; presumably they came with the Aslan. Both worlds are also "Multiple Clan, Split Control". Maybe some clans are being lazy and importing Chirper labour, or maybe... you don't think...

All honour to Chirperko and his kin.

 

[PeterDebney]

Families with 4 daughters = 0.75 x 0.75 x 0.75 x 0.75 = 31.6%
Families with 3 daughters = 0.75 x 0.75 x 0.75 x 0.25 = 10.5%
Families with 2 daughters = 0.75 x 0.75 x 0.25 x 0.25 = 3.5%
Families with 1 daughters = 0.75 x 0.25 x 0.25 x 0.25 = 1.2%
Families with 0 daughters = 0.25 x 0.25 x 0.25 x 0.25 = 0.4%

Alrighty, I have obviously screwed up the math somewhere

The maths comes together when you remember that there are 4 ways to have either one son or one daughter, and 6 ways to have two of each. So the maths should be

Families with 4 daughters: 0.75 x 0.75 x 0.75 x 0.75 = 31.6%

Families with 3 daughters: 0.75 *0.75 x 0.75 x 0.25 x 4 = 42.2%

Families with 2 daughters: 0.75 x 0.75 x 0.25 x 0.25 x 6 = 21.1%

Families with 1 daughter: 0.75 x 0.25 x 0.25 x 0.25 x 4 ‎ = 4.7%

Families with 0 daughters: 0.25 x 0.25 x 0.25 x 0.25 = 0.4%

 

[Condottiere]

 

[J. L. Brown]

The maths comes together when you remember that there are 4 ways to have either one son or one daughter, and 6 ways to have two of each. So the maths should be

Families with 4 daughters: 0.75 x 0.75 x 0.75 x 0.75 x 100‎ = 31.6%

Families with 3 daughters: 0.75 *0.75 x 0.75 x 0.25 x 4 = 42.2%

Families with 2 daughters: 0.75 x 0.75 x 0.25 x 0.25 x 6 = 21.1%

Families with 1 daughter: 0.75 x 0.25 x 0.25 x 0.25 x 4 ‎ = 4.7%

Families with 0 daughters: 0.25 x 0.25 x 0.25 x 0.25 = 0.4%

Thank you so much! I knew I had made a mistake.

So continuing this line of thought, with the corrected (& much superior) math provided by PeterDebney:
73.8 % of Aslan pairings do not produce Ihatei. Pairings that produce more than one Ihatei are fewer than 6%. There are a number of families which have no sons at all -- and it seems reasonable to think those families can absorb the 'excess sons'.

 

[Vormaerin]

The core problem with the ihatei conception that developed in the New Era Regency publications is that it ignores that Aslan clans need males at home. The clan military is not going to consist entirely of family heads and their firstborn. Even with female Aslan making up the vast majority of the civilian workforce, there's still need for males to do a variety of tasks, such as driving and piloting.

Some Aslan will always choose the option of going ihatei instead of serving the clan. But the idea that it is a huge swarm makes little sense. They probably loom larger in pop culture (Aslan & Human) than they do in reality.