Aslan, Ihatei, and Poverty

Vormaerin

Emperor Mongoose
So Aslan are the topic of the moment thanks to a pretty interesting new release. But there is a lot that isn't really covered in any Aslan book that I am aware of.

Obviously, territory is fairly important to Aslan. We know that a sufficient Territory to be considered a noble (Territory 1+) is tens of square kilometers. And we know that there are lots of landless Aslan. But there's almost no discussion of how landless Aslan relate to the larger society. Seems unlikely that they would rent property given the alien-ness of that concept to the Aslan culture in general and the males in particular. So, do they live in clan apartments that are provided as part of their "wages"? Is there a small holder class of Aslan, such that there is a distinction between "Territory 0" and "Territory: None", where the former is homesteads and such that are too small to be an aristocratic landholding?

It begs the question of whether land can be the territory of more than one Aslan. There is a lot of discussion of vassals when talking about Aslan. For instance, the CT Aslan book mentions that large landholders can't manage all their lands personally, so they have vassals managing it. Is that land the Territory of said vassal alone? The territory of both vassal and liege? Or is that vassal basically a property manager, not any kind of owner? I really doubt the grant is an allod, so it's likely the equivalent of an appanage or perhaps a life fief. (Of course, humans tended to work really hard to turn appanages and life fiefs into hereditary land grants. Aslan likely would be the same).

A second issue with Aslan demographics is the different role of women in their society. Trad humanity has the women doing labor that can be done from the household so they can manage the child rearing. Meanwhile, the men are off being the breadwinners and having awful work/life imbalance. That's clearly not how the Aslan function. The vast majority of the population are female and large chunks of the economy are exclusively women. No doubt some Aslan women are "housewives", but the husbands aren't working for wages per se. Most likely they are working for room and board type arrangements, either a personal home as "territory" or some kind of apartment tenancy. The people bringing in wealth are the women.

It is easy to think Aslan women would have the same kind of feelings as human women about their social status. But that status isn't remotely the same. Aslan women own the economy. The Elon Musks, Albert Einsteins, and Jeff Bezoses of the Aslan are women. Lower class mens' room and board earnings don't support multiple wives and even wealthy Aslan males seem to have 3 or so wives rather than vast harems. So that means a lot of single Aslan women doing the full career thing and probably not a lot of the human cultural pressure to produce spawn. Do Aslan women feel an individual need for progeny? Or do they have more of a communal sense of family continuity?

So when you consider the 'ihatei', the idea that these are footloose males going off on their own seems a bit specious. Given that Aslan have to rely on ranching for food rather than the far more space efficient farming, they are not going to be as population dense as humans. They will need more land even without considering territorial urges. Ihatei expeditions will need women along to manage logistics, technical matters, and complex matters like astrogation and engineering. And, in this modern era, ihatei are space faring. So they will have to be provided with ships. Which are expensive clan assets. I just find the idea that the ihatei are these uncontrolled surges of landless males unconvincing. They really are clan backed migrations. Which means the ideal targets would be close to existing clan territory, so the loss of resources (family, ships, etc) doesn't hurt the clan. Only when a clan is totally hemmed in and unable to expand through exploration or wars with neighbors will you likely see the standard trope of ihatei fired off into the far wilds. IMHO.

And, unless the Aslan birth rates are just massive, I don't see any way to explain the massive ihatei hordes that some Traveller events suggest.
 
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So Aslan are the topic of the moment thanks to a pretty interesting new release. But there is a lot that isn't really covered in any Aslan book that I am aware of.

Obviously, territory is fairly important to Aslan. We know that a sufficient Territory to be considered a noble (Territory 1+) is tens of square kilometers.
Alien Module 1: Aslan page 41. Average Aslan is TER 1-2, single family dwelling with a small garden. Wealthy Aslan is TER 3-5, a dwelling housing the family and associated retainers, a large garden. Minor noble is TER 6-8, a large structure housing the family and capable of accommodating most of the pride, together with gardens and some open space. Average Noble is TER 9-11, an estate of considerable size, including a hunting forest of several square kilometers in extent. Grand Noble is TER 12-14, a vast estate, possibly covering an entire world. Clan Head is TER 15+, multiple worlds.
And we know that there are lots of landless Aslan. But there's almost no discussion of how landless Aslan relate to the larger society. Seems unlikely that they would rent property given the alien-ness of that concept to the Aslan culture in general and the males in particular. So, do they live in clan apartments that are provided as part of their "wages"? Is there a small holder class of Aslan, such that there is a distinction between "Territory 0" and "Territory: None", where the former is homesteads and such that are too small to be an aristocratic landholding?
They are not "aristocratic" meaning noble, landholdings until TER 6+ and the vast majority of Aslan are TER 5-.
It begs the question of whether land can be the territory of more than one Aslan.
It cannot. Joint ownership is a concept not understood by Aslan males, nor is sharing. If the property owner's world is law in his Territory, then it cannot be owned by more than one Aslan.
There is a lot of discussion of vassals when talking about Aslan. For instance, the CT Aslan book mentions that large landholders can't manage all their lands personally, so they have vassals managing it. Is that land the Territory of said vassal alone?
No. Not any more than a European nobles' fief is theirs. It belongs to the Lord, not the vassal. The Vassals will often have land of their own as well otherwise the vassals are not nobles.
The territory of both vassal and liege? Or is that vassal basically a property manager, not any kind of owner? I really doubt the grant is an allod, so it's likely the equivalent of an appanage or perhaps a life fief. (Of course, humans tended to work really hard to turn appanages and life fiefs into hereditary land grants. Aslan likely would be the same).

A second issue with Aslan demographics is the different role of women in their society. Trad humanity has the women doing labor that can be done from the household so they can manage the child rearing. Meanwhile, the men are off being the breadwinners and having awful work/life imbalance. That's clearly not how the Aslan function. The vast majority of the population are female and large chunks of the economy are exclusively women. No doubt some Aslan women are "housewives", but the husbands aren't working for wages per se. Most likely they are working for room and board type arrangements, either a personal home as "territory" or some kind of apartment tenancy. The people bringing in wealth are the women.
An Aslan with TER 0 has no wives as none of them would have him. They may be "with" him to see if he improves his station to become a worthy mate, but no Aslan female wants a life a no status, and the status of a female Aslan is the TER of her father or husband.
It is easy to think Aslan women would have the same kind of feelings as human women about their social status. But that status isn't remotely the same. Aslan women own the economy. The Elon Musks, Albert Einsteins, and Jeff Bezoses of the Aslan are women. Lower class mens' room and board earnings don't support multiple wives and even wealthy Aslan males seem to have 3 or so wives rather than vast harems. So that means a lot of single Aslan women doing the full career thing and probably not a lot of the human cultural pressure to produce spawn. Do Aslan women feel an individual need for progeny? Or do they have more of a communal sense of family continuity?
Many Aslan females do the whole career thing. Many in management positions in the Aslan corporations eschew marriage so the clans do not control her business through her.

Lower class Aslan do not often have multiple wives as they do not have the Territory to support them.
So when you consider the 'ihatei', the idea that these are footloose males going off on their own seems a bit specious. Given that Aslan have to rely on ranching for food rather than the far more space efficient farming, they are not going to be as population dense as humans. They will need more land even without considering territorial urges.
I forget what book it was in, but Aslan need, on average, 4 times as much space as the same number of humans. Instead of averaging 100m2 per sophont, Aslan average 400m2 per sophont.
Ihatei expeditions will need women along to manage logistics, technical matters, and complex matters like astrogation and engineering. And, in this modern era, ihatei are space faring. So they will have to be provided with ships. Which are expensive clan assets. I just find the idea that the ihatei are these uncontrolled surges of landless males unconvincing. They really are clan backed migrations. Which means the ideal targets would be close to existing clan territory, so the loss of resources (family, ships, etc) doesn't hurt the clan. Only when a clan is totally hemmed in and unable to expand through exploration or wars with neighbors will you likely see the standard trope of ihatei fired off into the far wilds. IMHO.
One problem with this. If the Ihatei are not sent off, out of the Hierate, to claim Territory, they will attack those nearest them who they deem the weakest. So, your choices are constant internal war with over 400 Billion Ihetai, or send them off with the minimum equipment possible, including ships depending on the clan's wealth.
And, unless the Aslan birth rates are just massive, I don't see any way to explain the massive ihatei hordes that some Traveller events suggest.
Over 400 BILLION Ihetai. I consider that to be more than "horde-level" as far as sheer numbers go.
 
While males might be outnumbered 3:1 in births, they might breed like rabbits and that would drive the expansion.
On the other thread, you mentioned birth rates at "near replacement level". I am not sure that that is an accurate assessment of the Aslan. In human monogamous relationships, each female needs to have 2 children survive to procreate in order to have a net-zero change in population.

How many wives do Aslan have? I said the average was 2 and since the Aslan poplation has been exploding for the last several hundred years or more and multiple births are more common for Aslan than for humans, etc etc etc. I came up with an average Aslan family size of 8.5. That 0.5 is the Ihetai. So, one Ihetai per 2 families. I grabbed the population of the Aslan Heirate off the wiki and divided that by 17 (2 families of 8.5 each =17). That gives us a number close to 400 BILLION Ihetai.
 
On the other thread, you mentioned birth rates at "near replacement level". I am not sure that that is an accurate assessment of the Aslan. In human monogamous relationships, each female needs to have 2 children survive to procreate in order to have a net-zero change in population.

How many wives do Aslan have? I said the average was 2 and since the Aslan poplation has been exploding for the last several hundred years or more and multiple births are more common for Aslan than for humans, etc etc etc. I came up with an average Aslan family size of 8.5. That 0.5 is the Ihetai. So, one Ihetai per 2 families. I grabbed the population of the Aslan Heirate off the wiki and divided that by 17 (2 families of 8.5 each =17). That gives us a number close to 400 BILLION Ihetai.
That wasn't me. That was @J. L. Brown. I quote him in my sig but am not actually him. ;)
 
They could breed like rabbits, but we don't have anything suggesting that. The number of wives that an Aslan has scales with social class. Lower class tend to have 1 wife. Upper class will have 3 or 4. And women are running the economy, so they aren't just popping out kids annually.

The rules suggest that only elite Aslan have Territory. In CT, land holds were SOC-8 = Territory. In Mongoose Aslan, you can get Territory with mustering out benefits, but only if you are SOC 9+. Your Ancestral Territory (which is not your character's territory) determines your starting SOC. And, as pointed out in the new book, that's likely to be pretty freaking low. And in both CT & Mongoose rules, the definition of Ter 1 is 10s of square kilometers of landhold (10 to the power of TER in square kilometers).

So the situation is that the vast majority of Aslan males are tenants, not land owners. And they aren't supporting large families because they are husband, wife, and unmarried sisters. The women are not trad wives. They are integral, if not outright dominant, in the family business or operating their own businesses. There's also no reason to believe that Aslan have the same garbage work/life balance Americans tend to have that creates the false dichotomy between housewife and career woman. Aslan career women

Granted, there is no reason to believe that every ekho is literally its own household like with humans. Aslan could have clan hall or other communal housing for related families for the unlanded.

But even if they do breed like rabbits, that still leaves the issue of how that population pressure turns into the ihatei as presented. Which is generally a "I've left my clan to go found new lands" thing. If there is that much population pressure, the clan should be sending a whole segment of the population to found a colony somewhere, not a ragtag force of warrior dudes. Which does nothing about the ever growing female population unless they succeed AND send back for clanmates to join them. Which suggests they are somewhere vaguely close, not months or years away.

Clans need a certain level of population growth to maintain a good economic basis. So to have "spare" population really requires a quite high pop growth.
 
So the situation is that the vast majority of Aslan males are tenants, not land owners. And they aren't supporting large families because they are husband, wife, and unmarried sisters. The women are not trad wives. They are integral, if not outright dominant, in the family business or operating their own businesses. There's also no reason to believe that Aslan have the same garbage work/life balance Americans tend to have that creates the false dichotomy between housewife and career woman. Aslan career women
You lost part of this, and I want to know how it ends.
 
Oh, meh.

Aslan career women who found individual businesses *tend* to be unmarried so that their business can be passed down to other members of their clan without inheritance politics being as big a factor. And the same is true of those who become stockholders in non clan affiliated businesses for the same reasons. But there is no reason to believe that Aslan women don't have proper careers even with marriage and children given that they live in large extended families and have lots of support.
 
Tends to be the tail end of evolutionary pressures that the Aslan have experienced, which may now be mostly negated.

I suppose it's possible to reverse engineer this, but you might not like the result.
 
There's also just a general tendency to think that the Aslan do "business" the way Westerners do it. Which seems unfounded. Like, it is extremely unlikely that the Aslan have a rental or real estate market like we do. It is quite likely that the leader of the ahriy who owns a large territory provides the housing for all of his subordinate ekho who don't have their own "territory" as part of his clan obligations. Aslan probably don't have huge sweatshops producing planned obsolescent consumer crap. I doubt there is an Aslan equivalent of Walmart. They are far more likely to have boutique artisan type factories.

Aslan really can't have human style hive population densities given that they are carnivores. Even with intensive ranching, that's significantly less efficient in terms of land use. And, of course, Aslan like to hunt, not just ranch. And the extended families sharing meals, housing, etc.

Similarly, I just don't see Aslan being as hypocritical as humans and treating their clanmates as chattels. They are all the same family even if they are different levels of authority within the clan. The way it talks about hospitality within and across clans really suggests that they don't have an impoverished labor class packed into low end housing.

Obviously, it isn't some utopia small homesteader paradise and many places the Aslan are living in conditions that are not conducive to their ideal cultural expression. But the way the ekho and ahriy cooperate does not need to parallel the way nuclear and extended families (frequently don't) work for Westerners.

Naturally, this lower population density is going to make it more difficult to deal with population growth. So Aslan will always be expansionary because of land need by the males and population pressures in general. But they can't be considered to be constantly producing excess males that need to be fired off as random raiders. Service in a mercenary unit, the clan military, the exploration forces, and other such things are far, far more likely to result in beneficial outcomes. Both for the individual and the clan.
 
Personal space may mean a very respectful distance between males, specifically landed males, hence the instinct for large freeholds.

This would be between near peers.

Those males that have subordinated themselves to the head of the household, might be tolerated in closer proximity.
 
They could breed like rabbits, but we don't have anything suggesting that. The number of wives that an Aslan has scales with social class. Lower class tend to have 1 wife. Upper class will have 3 or 4. And women are running the economy, so they aren't just popping out kids annually.

The rules suggest that only elite Aslan have Territory. In CT, land holds were SOC-8 = Territory. In Mongoose Aslan, you can get Territory with mustering out benefits, but only if you are SOC 9+. Your Ancestral Territory (which is not your character's territory) determines your starting SOC. And, as pointed out in the new book, that's likely to be pretty freaking low. And in both CT & Mongoose rules, the definition of Ter 1 is 10s of square kilometers of landhold (10 to the power of TER in square kilometers).

So the situation is that the vast majority of Aslan males are tenants, not land owners. And they aren't supporting large families because they are husband, wife, and unmarried sisters. The women are not trad wives. They are integral, if not outright dominant, in the family business or operating their own businesses. There's also no reason to believe that Aslan have the same garbage work/life balance Americans tend to have that creates the false dichotomy between housewife and career woman. Aslan career women

Granted, there is no reason to believe that every ekho is literally its own household like with humans. Aslan could have clan hall or other communal housing for related families for the unlanded.

But even if they do breed like rabbits, that still leaves the issue of how that population pressure turns into the ihatei as presented. Which is generally a "I've left my clan to go found new lands" thing. If there is that much population pressure, the clan should be sending a whole segment of the population to found a colony somewhere, not a ragtag force of warrior dudes. Which does nothing about the ever growing female population unless they succeed AND send back for clanmates to join them. Which suggests they are somewhere vaguely close, not months or years away.

Clans need a certain level of population growth to maintain a good economic basis. So to have "spare" population really requires a quite high pop growth.
It looks like they completely rewrote the rules on Aslan as far as TER, SOC, and amount of land goes. I would like to know if it was intentional or not. If so, what was the reasoning behind the changes? If unintentional, well... that is a whole different conversation.
 
I apologize for breaking my previous promise not to reply to your posts as per your request, but someone brought this one to my attention. Don't worry, I won't make a habit of it.

If you are using this as your source, that was published for Mongoose 1e during an era when Mongoose was not very familiar with the setting and made lots of mistakes. The definitions of Territory that I quoted are from the original rules in Classic Traveller and Mongoose has corrected their material to be compliant with them in the MgT2e sourcebook "Aliens of Charted Space Vol 1" (which covers the Aslan, K'Kree, Vargr, and Zhodani) and this new book, Clans of the Aslan. I hope that clears up any confusion.

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I apologize for breaking my previous promise not to reply to your posts as per your request, but someone brought this one to my attention. Don't worry, I won't make a habit of it.

If you are using this as your source, that was published for Mongoose 1e during an era when Mongoose was not very familiar with the setting and made lots of mistakes. The definitions of Territory that I quoted are from the original rules in Classic Traveller and Mongoose has corrected their material to be compliant with them in the MgT2e sourcebook "Aliens of Charted Space Vol 1" (which covers the Aslan, K'Kree, Vargr, and Zhodani) and this new book, Clans of the Aslan. I hope that clears up any confusion.

View attachment 3257
Ahhhh... That makes sense. Thank you.
 
Similarly, I just don't see Aslan being as hypocritical as humans and treating their clanmates as chattels. They are all the same family even if they are different levels of authority within the clan. The way it talks about hospitality within and across clans really suggests that they don't have an impoverished labor class packed into low end housing.
I wonder if that is part of the Glorious Empire mindset?

{have not read the new book, not sure it mentions that schism}
 
Well, the as much as the Tlauku try, the Aslan are not a monoculture even with the Heirate. Any time you are discussing anything with regards to a species, you have to keep in mind that it is a very high end generalization. Different clans have different views on various issues. And once you get out of the Heirate, all bets are off. The Glorious Empire mostly used humans and other aliens as slaves, but they probably have outcast Aslan slaves as well. That slavery is one of the reasons other Aslan clans like to war on them.

Individuals and sub cultures are different from the main culture. And none of the major races are hive minds or otherwise have a single unifying culture. I think the closest you can get to a monocultural example of a widespread species in Traveller is the Newts. And they doubtless have subcultures that haven't been explored.

That, to me, is one of the great things about Charted Space. It doesn't have an artificial consistency. Real Life is messy and people especially so. The Aslan in Classic Traveller are a certain presentation. The Aslan in Mongoose 1e are a significant variation. GURPS Aslan is a minor variation IIRC. Mongoose 2e Aslan are another minor variation. Any, or more likely all, of them are the "real" Aslan in Charted Space. It'll just depend on which clans you are looking at.
 
Well, the as much as the Tlauku try, the Aslan are not a monoculture even with the Heirate. Any time you are discussing anything with regards to a species, you have to keep in mind that it is a very high end generalization. Different clans have different views on various issues. And once you get out of the Heirate, all bets are off. The Glorious Empire mostly used humans and other aliens as slaves, but they probably have outcast Aslan slaves as well. That slavery is one of the reasons other Aslan clans like to war on them.

Individuals and sub cultures are different from the main culture. And none of the major races are hive minds or otherwise have a single unifying culture. I think the closest you can get to a monocultural example of a widespread species in Traveller is the Newts. And they doubtless have subcultures that haven't been explored.

That, to me, is one of the great things about Charted Space. It doesn't have an artificial consistency. Real Life is messy and people especially so. The Aslan in Classic Traveller are a certain presentation. The Aslan in Mongoose 1e are a significant variation. GURPS Aslan is a minor variation IIRC. Mongoose 2e Aslan are another minor variation. Any, or more likely all, of them are the "real" Aslan in Charted Space. It'll just depend on which clans you are looking at.
Very well said!
 
Well, the as much as the Tlauku try, the Aslan are not a monoculture even with the Heirate. Any time you are discussing anything with regards to a species, you have to keep in mind that it is a very high end generalization. Different clans have different views on various issues. And once you get out of the Heirate, all bets are off. The Glorious Empire mostly used humans and other aliens as slaves, but they probably have outcast Aslan slaves as well. That slavery is one of the reasons other Aslan clans like to war on them.

Individuals and sub cultures are different from the main culture. And none of the major races are hive minds or otherwise have a single unifying culture. I think the closest you can get to a monocultural example of a widespread species in Traveller is the Newts. And they doubtless have subcultures that haven't been explored.

That, to me, is one of the great things about Charted Space. It doesn't have an artificial consistency. Real Life is messy and people especially so. The Aslan in Classic Traveller are a certain presentation. The Aslan in Mongoose 1e are a significant variation. GURPS Aslan is a minor variation IIRC. Mongoose 2e Aslan are another minor variation. Any, or more likely all, of them are the "real" Aslan in Charted Space. It'll just depend on which clans you are looking at.

That is actually a very useful way to use the various versions. (y)
 
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