Changes for 3rd edition ACTA
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All I can say is that yes, their weapons look horribly at 8", but in a game where they are spread out and they can cover each other, they are not as bad as everyone thinks.
If you haven't played against them, try it, I did, and have a new found respect for them. As Matthew stated, they will nto be touched in P&P. I know the guy playing them now is very happy with them.
If you haven't played against them, try it, I did, and have a new found respect for them. As Matthew stated, they will nto be touched in P&P. I know the guy playing them now is very happy with them.
Where has Matt stated that the Abbai won't be touched in P&P? As far as I know, with the stuff Matt has sent us to playtest and our feedback on it, the Bimith will get an upgrade and the Abbai as a whole will get something that will make the larger ships in particular more worthwhile to take.tschuma said:
I really wish I could see your battle reports on these Abbai wins.
The Narn and the Centauri can be vulnerable to massed fire due to scarcity of of interceptors if you don't allocate fighters to this role. I can see if you don't maneuver to avoid range eight you can run into some issues.
Is the abbai player losing a lot of those Tiracas? I would think there would be lots of concentrated fire finishing these quickly. Marata's not so much, but these should not be inflicting much either, and are frankly beam bait (26 damage doesn't hold up long to DD beams).
Triggy commented he playtested the Abbai largely using large groups of the Milani and Tiraca. I believe this illustrates the strength of the FAP buy down more than any strength of the Abbai. Buy down to the Haven/Kutai and try when you can match ship for ship and the Tiraca won't stand up so well.
Anyway... we found against a maneuver and position player, abbai hulls larger than the milani rarely fired and if they other player bought down to match you on numbers of ships, you weren't not the equal of other ships due to range.
Ripple
The Narn and the Centauri can be vulnerable to massed fire due to scarcity of of interceptors if you don't allocate fighters to this role. I can see if you don't maneuver to avoid range eight you can run into some issues.
Is the abbai player losing a lot of those Tiracas? I would think there would be lots of concentrated fire finishing these quickly. Marata's not so much, but these should not be inflicting much either, and are frankly beam bait (26 damage doesn't hold up long to DD beams).
Triggy commented he playtested the Abbai largely using large groups of the Milani and Tiraca. I believe this illustrates the strength of the FAP buy down more than any strength of the Abbai. Buy down to the Haven/Kutai and try when you can match ship for ship and the Tiraca won't stand up so well.
Anyway... we found against a maneuver and position player, abbai hulls larger than the milani rarely fired and if they other player bought down to match you on numbers of ships, you weren't not the equal of other ships due to range.
Ripple
Lone Gunman
Mongoose
Completely overhaul the Abbai. I bought a fleet box prior to 2nd Ed. and thought that it would get better. I was dissappointed. My fleet is always pounded to death at range while closing in. 8" is too less, lumbering is makes it even worse on the Bimith what should technically be a front line ship. Tiraca swarms seem to be the only viable tactic with Abbai presenetly. 
To be fair, I didn't test them using the FAP breakdowns we're using now. They were pretty much the Armageddon ones, the current ones weren't decided until after all of the playtesting was done and the book was being published. Basically all I tried to do was get them in line with other race's ships of the same PL. Of course, given that I tested them with mainly Tiracas and Milanis meant that the Lakara and especially the Bimith got a bit of a raw deal.Ripple said:
True enough Triggy, didn't mean it like that. Just that those particular hulls are usually the onces that are considered okay, or good, by both the playtest groups and the general crowd. It's always been the Lakara and Bimith that have really been questioned, with the marata and the shyarie needing a role in the fleet to be worthwhile.
I think the Juyaca, while well armed, is so slow it should have issues using it's weapons... making it frustrating to play. Brivioki is only annoying because it clearly has inferior fighters to the brakiri one, yet costs the same. Given it also has worse initiative, this ship needed something to balance it out, either more flights, or something extra.
Ripple
I think the Juyaca, while well armed, is so slow it should have issues using it's weapons... making it frustrating to play. Brivioki is only annoying because it clearly has inferior fighters to the brakiri one, yet costs the same. Given it also has worse initiative, this ship needed something to balance it out, either more flights, or something extra.
Ripple
Being a newbie player I was surprised to find a ship like the Gvrahn classed the same as a bin Tak looking at the two ships you would almost never take a bin tak (I do but I am a sap, I like the old wolf) in any situation .This I think is one of the problems with the lists as they are now .You can change the rating (cost ) of the two ships which should put them in two different categorys or you can change the ships themselves or you can do both .This I feel is the real discussion in a nut shell which one would be best. The G Quan as an example isnt a bad ship but I feel its a little week only about 75% of other ships in the same class . do we put it in a "cheaper " lower level class and not change the ship .Do we change tweek the ship like making the energy mine slow loading or something of the like. I dont know what the answer is, all I know is I want to field my Gquans instead of taking the same ships each time .This is going to take some good play testing Good luck to the testers !!!! p.s. I know I am new but I will volunteer to play test as well I really like this system DONT LET IT DIE !!!! PLEASE !!!!
OK, so Matt hasn't actually posted anything on this just yet but every playtester who's commented agrees and Matt hasn't actually said he wants the Bimith "as-is" either. To be blunt, we'll push through changes on the Bimith if we have to but I feel that we won't need to be that pushykatadder said:
The Tiraca and Milani (and Marata/Bisaria) are almost spot on. As you go up the Abbai PLs they generally get harder to use but this is countered to some degree with the Juyaca and Brivoki having longer range and being pretty decent choices. However, the Lakara finds it particularly hard to get into range compared to the smaller Abbai ships due to the lack of initiative sinks you get with a Lakara and the Bimith is just plain poor at the moment. However, sort out the Bimith and the Abbai won't need anything massive, just a moderate boost to become genuinely competitive.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
The Narn and Abbai suffer from having 8" range guns. 8" was a pretty standard range for secondary weapons in 1e, but 2e has caused those races that still rely on them to get left behind. A change to 10" or 12" would go a long way to solving those problems, IMHO.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
I know this is a lot harder, and it might not be correct, but I hope there is a better solution out there than just boosting the range of the Quad Arrays. I have an anecdote as to why so ... please, bear with me.
Star Fleet Battles has a lot of hard work on ship balance in it, but balance for all ships in all areas -- something that was suitable for tournament use -- was just lacking. It was hard. Drones (missiles) vs. Plasma was just messed up; Drones had a huge advantage, as the Plasma races hadn't installed relatively cheap technology to take out the missile threat. Others had. Others had huge advantages under electronic warfare (ECM Drones for Kzinti and Klingons), or detecting cloaked ships (Lyrans), and still others were strong, but endemic weaknesses occurred, such as ships that were built within a fleet concept, except you didn't get a fleet (ISC).
To get it right, they had to make specific ships that were fair for all matchups. These ships never even existed in the base game. They were called Tournament Cruisers (TCs) and had a very depressing sameness to them. Same shields. Same battery arrays. Same power. Very similar ship sizes. Dejecting sameness.
Why?
The easiest way to make sure things are perfectly balanced is to make them equal. And while that didn't happen --- different weapon technologies, different defensive systems, different turn rates, different special rules, different fire arcs --- a lot of sameness looked artificial. They were ... and are ... good for tournaments to this day, but they aren't fun over the board for just one-off fights.
Just going to the default range of 12 feels like a step toward sameness. I would hope that we could get a method of helping the Bimith and Lakara that didn't involve this, but instead leveraged another technology -- be it turn rate, a new special defensive system, what-have-you -- to bring them in line.
The problems are, of course, twofold: that's a lot harder to balance, and I don't know what it is.
It's easy yelling in ideas from the grandstands, isn't it? Tuesday Morning Quarterbacking, that's it.
Star Fleet Battles has a lot of hard work on ship balance in it, but balance for all ships in all areas -- something that was suitable for tournament use -- was just lacking. It was hard. Drones (missiles) vs. Plasma was just messed up; Drones had a huge advantage, as the Plasma races hadn't installed relatively cheap technology to take out the missile threat. Others had. Others had huge advantages under electronic warfare (ECM Drones for Kzinti and Klingons), or detecting cloaked ships (Lyrans), and still others were strong, but endemic weaknesses occurred, such as ships that were built within a fleet concept, except you didn't get a fleet (ISC).
To get it right, they had to make specific ships that were fair for all matchups. These ships never even existed in the base game. They were called Tournament Cruisers (TCs) and had a very depressing sameness to them. Same shields. Same battery arrays. Same power. Very similar ship sizes. Dejecting sameness.
Why?
The easiest way to make sure things are perfectly balanced is to make them equal. And while that didn't happen --- different weapon technologies, different defensive systems, different turn rates, different special rules, different fire arcs --- a lot of sameness looked artificial. They were ... and are ... good for tournaments to this day, but they aren't fun over the board for just one-off fights.
Just going to the default range of 12 feels like a step toward sameness. I would hope that we could get a method of helping the Bimith and Lakara that didn't involve this, but instead leveraged another technology -- be it turn rate, a new special defensive system, what-have-you -- to bring them in line.
The problems are, of course, twofold: that's a lot harder to balance, and I don't know what it is.
It's easy yelling in ideas from the grandstands, isn't it? Tuesday Morning Quarterbacking, that's it.
