Brothers In Armss - Request for Army Lists

[cordas]

Thing is, the Command Squad is a must-have unit for the Brits, so there is no way I'd have dropped it.

Hmmm...Generally if something is must-have unit then there's something wrong with the game balance...

Not allways. The command unit is a great little unit and the extra move it uses is great, but by the same measure so is the Abrams, Chally, Technicals and half a dozen other units.

 

[Mr Evil]

if the brit comand squad was costed at 150 points instead of 75 people would still take it in large games but woudld ponder on small 500 point games where there more powerful than in 2 k games.

bit under costed i agree.

 

[cordas]

bit under costed i agree.

Maybe, we tend to play around the 1000 point mark, and have only had one game so far with the brits vrs USMC, and the USMC player conceeded due to time and having to go deal with offspring, the Brits where in a better position, but the USMC could have still brought it back given a little luck.

 

[lastbesthope]

Hmmm...Generally if something is must-have unit then there's something wrong with the game balance...

No, now if a unit is a "Why take anything else" unit, then there might be something wrong with game balance, but it depends on whether that unit is better than everything else on the table, or everything else in that army is worse than everything else in the game.

75 feels about right, you basically swap it for half a squad of infantry (which I usually use the other half squad to support the Command Squad).

LBH

 

[tneva82]

75 feels about right, you basically swap it for half a squad of infantry (which I usually use the other half squad to support the Command Squad).

So...In how many games(% wise) you will take command squad?

More so: In how many games(% wise) you will max out on number of command squad? Ie 2250 game. Will you take 2 command squads?

Extreme example: 2001 pts game. 0, 1 or 2 command squads?

 

[lastbesthope]

Probably all of them.

As for 2 squads in a 2000+ point game, again depends, if I'm only fielding one platoon, I'm still limited to one. it all depends on the rules in place.

but there are very few situations where I can see myself not taking a Command Squad.

The thing is, in a couple of waves, the PLA will have them as well, so it won;t be a EFTF only thing.

LBH

 

[cordas]

Wonder how often PLA players will avoid taking command squads, or MEA the Religious leader which I believe acts in a somewhat similar matter. Just hope the USMC doesn't get em *GRIN*....

 

[Mr Evil]

if the points value are right, you would be there thiking shall i shall i not take them, as if i take them i loose x but if i leave them out i get to use x

the brit command squad is defiantly underpriced as its a case of do i drop half a brit squad to take them,............. um well of course !!!! if they were 150 points (with the exta action more often than not pays for it game terms.) but at 150 its a case of do i drop a squad of 8 men for a 3 man squad ? evan then its probably a YES but in large games you may take the extra infantry squad instead of the command to allow you to take hat extra tank for example.

just my point of view, the PLA comand section is definatly needed if any thing they should be free to make up for the over costing of the pla infantry.

 

[cordas]

just my point of view, the PLA comand section is definatly needed if any thing they should be free to make up for the over costing of the pla infantry.

I don't like the idea of giving a unit cheap, to make up for making a different unit to expensive. Just suck it up and issue a statement in S&P (and new PLA packs) and give a better points value for the unit. Following the discussions on this it does seem to me that the PLA infantry is a bit over priced, so could do with lowering by 30 points or just add in a 2nd Squad 2 (corp, rifle, mg) and keep it at 190, this would fit with the human tide idea. That would then messes up the box layout, so I would drop the price and add in the option for the extra squad.

 

[lastbesthope]

I think the EFTF Command squad is undercosted the same way the Shadows/Technicals are undercosted. That is to say they aren't, but armies without the option wish they had an equivalent or a counter unit for the same price. I know I wish I had an equivalent to the Shadows or Techs in my EFTF army list for so few points, my Warriors (heck, even Challys) are too vulnerable to massed Shadow attack

LBH

 

[tneva82]

but there are very few situations where I can see myself not taking a Command Squad.

Precicely my point...It's not core unit as such(like infantry squad is) so if you take it automaticly odds are very, very good that it is too good for points and in fact is no choise at all. You take it. If you don't you are handicapping yourself.

 

[lastbesthope]

I disagree there, just because I always take it does not necessarily carry that it is too good for it's points, simply that there isn't anything else I can by with the available points that is better.

There's a difference between it being the best use of your points, and it being overpowered.

I mean, is a Shadow overpowered? Costs less than a Command Squad, and can conceivably kill 2 Challengers in one turn (It is d10 + 3 isn't it?) As I mentioned above, I think it's just that some units, at the moment, have no obvious counter or equivalent in other army lists.

LBH

 

[Mr Evil]

ok lbh several games you have a choice in each one

500
1000
1500
2000
2500

each game you have a set list but may exchange one section of brit infantry for one comand squad, wich games would you do it in ?

answer all of them

now change the question say command squad is 160 poits for simplicity.

now wich games would toy swap an entire squad for a comand section ? id say every game over 1500 points as other wise you wouldnr have the 2 squads available for a challenger allowance.

now the shadows.

same question but you can swap any M1A2 out for 4 shadows (as it is currently)

500 points ? hell yes without a doubt, need a legal half decnet list after all
1000 points ? hellyeah shaows rule, and lots of mobile infantry
1500 points hmm may do a 50/50 split here or for evey 4 shadows also balance it with M1A2's
2000 points plus as abovedef get the 2 M1A2's in and then fill with shadows as a secondary..


thing is at 75 points the same cost as 4 normal brit troopers your not droping much in shatter and the value of the command unit on a chally is emense, and all you got to do is drop half a team without risking the opertunity of not having that chally in your force ? if it wad say 160 then youd drop the squad and loos out on the chance of an extra chally as well, for example.

maybe there should have been a test to issue the order, if a 1 was rolled your enemy get the action as they second guese you.

 

[Mr Evil]

I mean, is a Shadow overpowered? Costs less than a Command Squad, and can conceivably kill 2 Challengers in one turn (It is d10 + 3 isn't it?) LBH

how do you propose a single shadow can kill 2 challys in one turn ? also in retrospect with equaly good dice rolls how many shadows can a chally kill in one turn with a comand action ?

 

[tneva82]

I disagree there, just because I always take it does not necessarily carry that it is too good for it's points, simply that there isn't anything else I can by with the available points that is better.

So once BF:evo expanses and there are other units for same cost do you expect your use of command squad diminish?

If it's still better choise for same cost doesn't that hint you something?

 

[The Old Soldier]

LBH has a good point. I say get over it. Concidering how little is available, not to mention that the Adv. Rule book is not out with Army list in it, that all this discussion over the British Command unit is wasted energy.

I'd rather have MP step up production.

 

[lastbesthope]

answer all of them

now change the question say command squad is 160 poits for simplicity.

But that doesn't prove that 75 is too cheap, all that might prove is that I consider 160 points too dear.

Different people play differnetly, what's worth what to one person is different from another person's view. Now I have stated my opinion, you have stated yours. Neither of us has access to the wisdom of the ages (or even the designers)

I mean, is a Shadow overpowered? Costs less than a Command Squad, and can conceivably kill 2 Challengers in one turn (It is d10 + 3 isn't it?) LBH

how do you propose a single shadow can kill 2 challys in one turn ? also in retrospect with equaly good dice rolls how many shadows can a chally kill in one turn with a comand action ?

How? Well I admit it assumes that the Shadow's main weapon is d10 +3 (an assumption I stated) and that it can fire twice in a turn( I didn't state that, but IIRC it is true). If either of those assumptions is false, then my statement is wrong, but I don't own a Shadow card so I was working from memory. Assuming I'm right in my recollection however.....

So a Shadow is in open terrain, a cocky EFTF player moves 2 Challengers into it's forward arc within range of the nasty d10+3 weapon, but outside 10" (reaction range) of the Shadow, leaving both tanks out in the open. Our brave Shadow now decides to attack both Challengers rather than run away. Target Challenger #1, rolls a 10, which becomes a 13 BOOM. Repeat for Challenger #2, 2 dead Challengers

I disagree there, just because I always take it does not necessarily carry that it is too good for it's points, simply that there isn't anything else I can by with the available points that is better.

So once BF:evo expanses and there are other units for same cost do you expect your use of command squad diminish?

If it's still better choise for same cost doesn't that hint you something?

To your first question, well it all depends on what other units become available, what I expect to be up against and how my persoal playing style and tactics develop.

To you r second question, all it hints at is that I consider that a Command Squad to be the best use of 75 points in the cases I decide to play it in, and not in the ones I don't. Is the best unit in any army inherently underpriced just because it's the best? Or does it just mean it;s the best tool for the job.

LBH has a good point. I say get over it. Concidering how little is available, not to mention that the Adv. Rule book is not out with Army list in it, that all this discussion over the British Command unit is wasted energy.

Mayhap a little harsh, we're all entitled to their opinion. but do you see me moaning that the Shadow is undercosted at 70 points? (No you don't) Evil took 9 of them plus token infantry in his army at the tourney. They owned Lee and I in the first game. Yes it was disheartening, yes I wish he hadn't been able to field quite so many, but I'm not jumping on the "They should cost twice as much as they do" bandwagon. Think about it Evil, would you have taken so many shadows if they cost 150 points each. I doubt it, then the Abrams would come more into play in your list. But I'm sure I'll come up with a way to beat a 9 shadow army eventually.

LBH

 

[Mr Evil]

Think about it Evil, would you have taken so many shadows if they cost 150 points each. I doubt it, then the Abrams would come more into play in your list. But I'm sure I'll come up with a way to beat a 9 shadow army eventually.

LBH

read my post above for your answer, as i put the shadow and the eftf comand section throught the same point bars.

id take shadows at 90 points as i see that as their value, ive never stated there spot on and have over 20+ games found them to be worht around 90 points each, the eftf command section using wave 1-2 is worth over the same amount of games between 150 and 400 points (it realy makes that much differance in big games, the games we play range from 500 points to 3k on average.

the shadow can only fire once per turn, if they could have shot twice per turn your chally would possably been dead on first turn as comand unit would have allowed one of them to shoot 3 times.

id naver deid more than 9 shadows no matter what size the game is and against the chinease and MEA its sorta waisted so that is what probably drops its points value down to 70 from 90.

but the command unit is strong no matter what is in your army. so i feel there should be a little dicouragment in points to use, picking any unit in a force should be a hmm harrrrrr moment.

trouble with comand units is the possability of theor points value being equal to the fool behind them, some one not to dandy with them yes about 100 points seems a bit steep, but some one who can pul of game winning turns with them every turn could be worth half as much as the most exspensive unit in the force as effectivly thats what it is.

dont get me wrong, i say keep them cheap, but im just asking maybe can we have a few options to make that command squad not such an attractive unit, maybe a skill roll to perform it with dire concequences if you roll a 1, or maybe allow forces to jam command squads with a ready action from speacial tek units or somthing. so you get to the point of like well i never get to use my command action due to the darn jamming so why bother. ? maybe jamming is dependant on actions spent, ie 1 action jamming no enemy comands within 24" 2 actions jamming no command actions to be performed within 48" for example ? or maybe jamming means enemy need to pass a skill roll to get that action through ? ie 1 action jamming, enemy unit can only take a 3rd action on a roll of 4+ 2 actions jamming thed need a 6 ?

just ideas, rather than change what we got add bits to adress the ballance.

 

[lastbesthope]

OK, my assumptions were wrong (excusable since I don't have the cards) and I therefore retract my statement about the 2 Chally kills. And sorry I missed your comparison of Shadows.

Although I don't think swapping Shadows for Abrams is a fair comparison to swapping Infantry for Command squads.

There is an additional cost in taking a Command squad though. You need to protect it. Lee and I both used the spare half squad to cover 1 command unit each.

I honestly don't see how the xost of any unit can vary between 150 and 400 points Evil, that;s a heck of a value swing.

But I think if anything is clear in this dscussion it's that I like taking command squads as they stand, and why the hell shouldn't I?

[DIGRESSION WARNING]
I'm getting a faint whiff of bearded cheesiness as regards selection of the Command squad (from more than one direction). One of the many thoughts I had on my long Saturday night was, in a tournament, there is no such thing as a cheese fleet/army. Everyone has access to the same rules and army lists to choose from. If you're playing to win, then you can't be faulted for any single choice you make so long as it;s within the rules. Now if anticheese points are awarded in the tournament set up that's another question. but then this was a wholly seperate point anyway.
[/DIGRESSION WARNING]

LBH

 

[lastbesthope]

also in retrospect with equaly good dice rolls how many shadows can a chally kill in one turn with a comand action ?

Well theoretically the best a Challenger can do is 1 kill and 12 hits in one turn against Shadows. (18 hits if you count Command squads but we won't since we didn't allow the Shadows to have them)

I can't rememebr the armour save on a shadow, but I'd say it's safe to say about 4 of the twelve hits would count. So max 3 kills if placement of the Shadows and fire zones is perfect.

So you have a 3:1 kill ratio with perfect dice, however, the shadow has a 1 in 10 chance of it's perfect roll, whereas the Challenger has a 0.1 * (1/6)^12 probability which is 1 in 21,767,823,360. Given that the Challenger also costs 6 times as much as the Shadow, the Shadow comes out slightly better when comparing simply these stats.

LBH