Brothers In Armss - Request for Army Lists

[Mr Evil]

love the way you over complicate the maths.

with perfect rolls like applied to the chally, a chally can 7 per action of the shaows are all in the smae fire zone or spred between 2 fire zones, thats a potentualy 14 shadows max from one turn thats 880 points worth with pure jammy luck of the irish covered in gold and would never happen. (not including blast)

my exsperiance is only from the games we have played with 4 factions and sometimes combined factions, battles ranging from around 500 - 5k on some days. ive seen a comand section respondable in one game foe the death of 2 M1A2's and an enemy chally over 4 turns and some jam on dice. the comand action can be used well very well, it was a 1 man chally army using a comand squad, and totaly out performed 2 M1A2s and a chally with no command available. once the other forces get their comands every body will use them religously i recon.

 

[tneva82]

To you r second question, all it hints at is that I consider that a Command Squad to be the best use of 75 points in the cases I decide to play it in, and not in the ones I don't. Is the best unit in any army inherently underpriced just because it's the best? Or does it just mean it;s the best tool for the job.

If it is actually no choise at all but automatic option because it is so good...Yes.

Let's say challenger costs 200 pts. Would you not max out on those?

If there's actually no real choise wether to choose something or not(ie you either never take it or always take it) then there IS something wrong with balance...Balanced units are "hmm...Should I take this or maybe that unit instead?"

 

[lastbesthope]

love the way you over complicate the maths.

I didn't complicate it, that's what the maths is for rolling a d10 and 12 d6's and getting maximum rolls on all dice. Basic probability.

However I did make the following errors, you don't need a 10 on the d10 to kill a Shadow, a 4 or more will kill it IIRC, and a 2 or more will force an armour save. And I forgot splash damage.

with perfect rolls like applied to the chally, a chally can 7 per action of the shaows are all in the smae fire zone or spred between 2 fire zones, thats a potentualy 14 shadows max from one turn thats 880 points worth with pure jammy luck of the irish covered in gold and would never happen. (not including blast)

Well you're unfamiliarity with Challenger stats notwithstanding, you can't get 14 kills from one turn in a Challenger vs Shadow fight.

First off, you only get to roll the d10 once, big gun can't fire twice. Second, the d6s you roll from the splash damage, Chain Gun and GPMG can't kill Shadows, only force armour saves. So let's say you get 4 splash targets with the big gun, that's still only 1 d10 and 16 d6s. Assuming 2 failed armour saves kills a Shadow, that's a theoretical maximum of 9 kills total (8 from the d6s and one from the d10) but the odds of that are ludicrous, you'd have more chance of winning the lottery two weeks in a row. ( I reworked them at lunchtime but didn't want to b ore you with the complication)

But comparing offensive capability is only one aspect of the points balance, mobility, defence and other aspects are presumably taken into account.

my exsperiance is only from the games we have played with 4 factions and sometimes combined factions, battles ranging from around 500 - 5k on some days. ive seen a comand section respondable in one game foe the death of 2 M1A2's and an enemy chally over 4 turns and some jam on dice. the comand action can be used well very well, it was a 1 man chally army using a comand squad, and totaly out performed 2 M1A2s and a chally with no command available. once the other forces get their comands every body will use them religously i recon.

I think you;re right about everyone taking them, but a Command squad isn;t directly responsible for the death of a tank, they need to be supporting something that can kill a tank. It'a all about the combined effect of your army list.

If it is actually no choise at all but automatic option because it is so good...Yes.

Let's say challenger costs 200 pts. Would you not max out on those?

If there's actually no real choise wether to choose something or not(ie you either never take it or always take it) then there IS something wrong with balance...Balanced units are "hmm...Should I take this or maybe that unit instead?"

If Chally's were 200 points each, of course I'd take a good few of them. but they're not.

As for your point, there is a difference between a unit being a natural pick and being unbalanced on it's own. A theoretical army consisting of nothing but Command units would not be overpowered, quite the contrary, but as part of an army they have a use. A basic MEA Inf squad is 75 points, and in a straight out fight would likely slaughter a Command squad, does that make the MEA overpowered or undercosted? I think not.

The Command Squad is a force enabler/multiplier. Evil suggested above that a Command squad should be worth between 150-400 points. how can a command squad be worth almost as much as a whole tank?

LBH

 

[Mr Evil]

[ A basic MEA Inf squad is 75 points, and in a straight out fight would likely slaughter a Command squad, does that make the MEA overpowered or undercosted? I think not.?

LBH

actualy the command squad would win as it has 3 actions and a save throw and fist ! max feds can kill in a turn is 2, 1 from each action if you use fist right, while the command squad can kill 9 mea in one turn.

ie worth more than 75 points

 

[lastbesthope]

OK, hadn't ocnsidered that, but the MEA RPG outranges the EFTF rifles so it would not necessarily be cut and dried, couple that with the fact that the MEA can spread out more than the Command squad, the Lt. and Radio Operator have to be within 2" of each other to gain the bonus.

I still don't think the the command squad is over powered for 75 points. Obviously you do, and I don;t see either of us changing that opinion after all this discussion.

LBH

 

[tneva82]

how can a command squad be worth almost as much as a whole tank?

You said it yourself: It's force multiplier. It boosts your force a LOT.

The extra action is so usefull that in SST it was often worth taking 300 pts brain bug just because of the extra action...

I got nasty feelings when I saw price of command squad first time and so far nothing I have seen has removed that nasty feeling. Extra action is _very_ powerfull ability.

The fact those command squads pop out in nearly every/every EFTF list isn't helping either...

 

[lastbesthope]

Well I'm not qualified to compare BF:Evo prices to SST equivalents, but just because people would take a unit at a higher price doesn't mean it;s unbalanced or undercosted in game terms, only that it's undercosted in 'market' terms, which are a lot about perception rather than cold hard facts.

I honestly think that the only way in which the command Unit might be considered 'unbalanced' is that only the EFTF have them at the moment. YMMV

Something similar could be said about Shadows/Technicals, Anti-tank capable infantry, or the fact that the PLA can field a tank in a 500 point game and still have room left for Infantry.

But Mongoose did state that initial releases would try and give each faction a different feel, the EFTF having Command units first is likely part of that. The PLA will have them soon, and no doubt later, the rest of the armies.

LBH

 

[Greg Smith]

In SST any bug army over about 1200 points benefitted tremendously from a brain bug.

The PLA are getting a command squad. The MEA are getting a revered leader. I imaging the USMC will get something similar. The EFTF is limited to one per 2000 points, so I imagine the others will be too.