Brain uploading

Morgoth99

Banded Mongoose
Okay, we have some regions where it's mentioned that brains can be uploaded, Neumann among them. Buit the closest we seem to get to rules for brain uploading is cyborging, which is not the same thing, at all.
So are there any rules in the main traveler setting for uploading (destructively or no) a brain into a computer?

It's hinted that is what happened to lucan in 1248, but I'm thinking any7 rules in Mongoose Traveller.

Thanks!

 
Okay, we have some regions where it's mentioned that brains can be uploaded, Neumann among them. Buit the closest we seem to get to rules for brain uploading is cyborging, which is not the same thing, at all.
So are there any rules in the main traveler setting for uploading (destructively or no) a brain into a computer?

It's hinted that is what happened to lucan in 1248, but I'm thinking any7 rules in Mongoose Traveller.

Thanks!

I think this is mainly in T5. In Mongoose, this technology is above TL-16. As far as I know anyhow.
 
The device in Expedition to Zhodane might be what you are looking for. Not a full brain upload, tho.

EDIT: Classic Traveller Adventure 6
 
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So are you talking about a full intelligence and personality upload into a computer?
That's gonna take a bunch of bandwidth.

Over the history of Traveller, the TLs have slid 'to the right' as Earth science has advanced. Back in the LBB days, Paranoia Press has organic brains acting as the processors for a computer at TL 17. A Challenge 28 article gave us the alien Sabmiqys species of AI pseudo-biological robots at TL 17. DGP had a fully functioning AI-android as 'prototype tech' at the screaming edge of TL 15 /16 [the Aybee /AB-101 character].
Then MWM decides to bugger up the TL timeline by giving us personality wafer tech at TL 13 or so in Agent of the Imperium. :D
And, of course, we're all influenced by the cyberpunk genre and the Cyberpunk 2077 game.

So I guess the question is this: In the Traveller universe, can technology harvest a sophont's brain [their knowledge, personality, and thinking processes] into an electronic format, either mobile or immobile?
At TL 15, I'd probably rule 'No' for my table. At TL 16, it's possible with serious risks [personality degradation, 'aging' of the intellect, etc.]. At TL 17 it's a fully developed technological nightmare a' la Altered States.
 
The device in Expedition to Zhodane might be what you are looking for. Not a full brain upload, tho.
That device is a personality overlay in both Adv 6 Expedition to Zhodane and in subsequent Mongoose sources, sort of like a form of technological 'brain washing'. It isn't the wholesale harvesting of sophont's intellect and personality into an electronic format.
 
YEah. I mean, part of my issue is that in Nuemann they mention that citizens have been uploaded--and that's a TL15 society.

"
Actually running the
government and caring for the immortal souls (uploaded
into a memory aleph) of the citizens come a distant
third and fourth priority for the cult."

So what does that mean? Destructive uploading? Some form of post-death existence? Static memory? It's a little annoying.
(Mainly because I'm working on a JTAS bit that I was considering having a prototype "uploading system" featuring in it, but I wanted to check around and found well, nothing.)
 
YEah. I mean, part of my issue is that in Nuemann they mention that citizens have been uploaded--and that's a TL15 society.

"
Actually running the
government and caring for the immortal souls (uploaded
into a memory aleph) of the citizens come a distant
third and fourth priority for the cult."

So what does that mean? Destructive uploading? Some form of post-death existence? Static memory? It's a little annoying.
(Mainly because I'm working on a JTAS bit that I was considering having a prototype "uploading system" featuring in it, but I wanted to check around and found well, nothing.)

Ok, so this very much a IMTU take on the situation.
TL is something of a misnomer. It gives a general mean average for technological advances but there are outliers all over the place.... witness regressed worlds where the average sustainable TL is TL 6 but they are sinking a lot of time and resources into being able to make TL 9 Jump drives. They can do the work, but each individual part is hand-crafted to high tolerances. They're expending a lot of the planetary GDP that might bring the mean average TL of the world to TL 7 for everybody to keep the capability for interstellar travel. They can hand-craft fusion power plants, but outside the space launch complex the world using fossil fuels.

As Earth has shown us, when a civilization focuses on a technological achievement... when they put a lot of money and all the applicable geniuses on a problem... amazing things can be accomplished. Look around at how much of our current technology is is based on three programs: the Manhattan Project, the pioneering computing projects at Bletchley Park, and the APOLLO Program. In each case, the governments involved sank actual percentages of their GDP into focused research to achieve the desired technological results. Each project gathered the relevant geniuses, put together capable intelligent support staffs, and invested in the experimental machinery. I know that at one point in 1943, the Manhattan Project took up something like 4-5% the US GDP... in wartime.

So while I might think that uploading consciousness is a TL 16-17 technology, if the society is willing to go lower than the mean average TL in another technology, it's possible they could be one of the outliers.
 
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Ok, so this very much a IMTU take on the situation.
TL is something of a misnomer. It give a general mean average for technological advances but there are outliers all over the place.... witness regressed worlds where the average sustainable TL is TL 6 but they are sinking a lot of time and resources into being able to make TL 9 Jump drives. They can do the work, but each individual part is hand-crafted to high tolerances. They're expending a lot of the planetary GDP that might bring the mean average TL of the world to TL 7 for everybody to keep the capability for interstellar travel. They can hand-craft fusion power plants, but outside the space launch complex the world using fossil fuels.

As Earth has shown us, when a civilization focuses on a technological achievement... when they put a lot of money and all the applicable geniuses on a problem... amazing things can be accomplished. Look around at how much of our current technology is is based on three programs: the Manhattan Project, the pioneering computing projects at Bletchley Park, and the APOLLO Program. In each case, the governments involved sank actual percentages of their GDP into focused research to achieve the desired technological results. Each project gathered the relevant geniuses, put together capable intelligent support staffs, and invested in the experimental machinery. I know that at one point in 1943, the Manhattan Project took up something like 4-5% the US GDP... in wartime.

So while I might think that uploading consciousness is a TL 16-17 technology, if the society is willing to go lower than the mean average TL in another technology, it's possible they could be one of the outliers.
Also, Early Prototype technology is available 2 TLs below the published, "mature technology" TL.
 
Also, Early Prototype technology is available 2 TLs below the published, "mature technology" TL.
Well, like I said, that was an IMTU judgement.

Using an experimental medical procedure has more personal hazards than most prototypes. As I mentioned a couple posts up, prototype consciousness uploading has all sorts of VERY nasty psychological risks involved and only the desperate would try it.
Furthermore, I'd probably rule that the process at its 'mature' level is for uploading the consciousness into a mainframe. At that TL the only mobility the subject consciousness would have is if it was installed in a starship a'la Virus. To go 'full borg' you'd need AT LEAST one and possibly two more TLs.

And to be completely honest with you, I think of this kind of technology as nightmare fuel anyway. The idea of imprisoning everything that makes a person a sophont in a mainframe computer is 'Neuromancer' kind of ugly. A consciousness deprived of what it means to be a living breathing being is already two steps down the road to going rogue.
 
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I think there was something in GURPS: Transhuman Space, which will give you a GURPS TL, which you can then compare to GURPS: Traveller, which you can then translate into other Traveller TLs. IIRC the early version was destructive uploading, but a later version had non-destructive. I can imagine both being problematic!

As a tangent, John Scalzi's "Old Man's War" series has consiousness uploading as a central theme, with a couple of stories touchnig on what Ottarrus mentioned.
 
For the OTU, I'd say it's tl 16, with prototypes at TL 14. Same if someone wanted to use Traveller to run games of Transhuman Space*
But if someone wanted to do, say, Car Wars with Traveller, I'd call it brain scanning, and that tech is TL 10 or 11, which is why an Autoduellist can do it at TL 9 with a prototype.

*: if someone wants to, that might be interesting as an unofficial conversion. Though there's other SJ Games settings I'd be m9re interested in.
 
You need to read the novel Agent of the Imperium and also dip into the T5 rules.

T5 doesn't actually mention destructive brainscans - setting not following rules as written, very Traveller - it does, however, mention that brain recordings can be made as low as TL12 (in the Robots section). Adding in the relevant bits of the tech tree
TL 12 - personality recording and editing.
TL 13 - cloning, forced growth, wafer technology, wafer jack, wafer headset
TL 14 - temporary personality transfer
TL 15 - mindwipe and editing, pattern personality transfer.
TL 17 - permanent personality transfer

So destructive scans at TL12.
A temporary personality transfer (Agent of the Imperium) TL14 (Bland et al are experimental/prototype)
Non-destructive at TL14 - immortality but at a price - every week you have to re-upload your personality to your clone, failure to do so results in a mindwipe (this is how I think the Essaray do it)
Cloning and transferring the personality permanently TL15
Altered Carbon/Eclipse Phase at TL17


It's worth revisiting this.
TL 12 - personality recording and editing - this is destructive
TL 13 - cloning, forced growth, wafer technology, wafer jack, wafer headset
TL 14 - temporary personality transfer - every week you have to re-upload your personality - brainscans are still destructive.
TL 15 - mindwipe and editing, pattern personality transfer - brainscans are no longer destructive and your personality can be permanently downloaded to a clone of your brain.
TL 17 - permanent personality transfer - personalities can take over a host permanently

The technique used on Bland is thus a TL12 brainscan and experimental TL14 personality uploading.

So destructive scans at TL12.
A temporary personality transfer (Agent of the Imperium) TL14 (Bland et al are experimental/prototype)
Non-destructive at TL14 - immortality but at a price - every week you have to re-upload your personality to your clone, failure to do so results in a mindwipe (this is how I think the Essaray do it)
Cloning and transferring the personality permanently TL15 - could bland be resurrected from his finger?
Altered Carbon/Eclipse Phase at TL17

Also note that electronic personality transfer is one of the ways one of the first starfarer races that pre-dated the Ancients travelled from world to world.

The memories and personality of a being can be recorded onto a "wafer". Anyone with a wafer jack or someone with a wafer interface headset can have those memories (and personality) run on their brain.

But here is the thing for any "brain uploading", the copy of you isn't really you unless the original is destructively scanned.

The copy will think it is you though.

Here is a link to the thread where the current JTAS article on this subject was discussed.

 
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YEah, I mean, a big part is obviously, Traveller's universe and a lot of assumptions were set well before the explosion of cyberpunk and transhuman fiction--and easy brain uploading is a big, big deal--I mean, what noble wouldn't want to live forever?

So I think I'll go with: TL15 uploading is possible and making that a permanent implant that doesn't go bad--but like an agent wafer, it's destructive. It also generally needs a living, healthy brain, so you can't get away with "Well, I'm dead." Non-destructive uploading, to keep the overall ethos of traveller, is one of those things that seems to be a difference in kind rather than just degree. (so unless Grandfather is dropping by in a good mood, even prototypes aren't available).
A lot of what people call "uploading" is using memories, or even just information about the person in a clone as part of fast training. rather than "real" uploading, which is why the Imperium ignores it. It may give you a sense of the earlier fellow and some clones might even be convinced that they are him--but they aren't.

Why don't people do it a lot? 1. You have to commit suicide to do it, and the vast majority of people in the Imperium see it as just that: killing yourself so...a copy can live? Legally, you're dead, which means any titles, funds, and property go to your heirs, and if you're in a robot brain, they might even own you.
2. Since you were killed, anyone helping you is guilty of Murder 1.
3. It's super expensive.
4. It can go wrong, leaving a broken mind begging for the sweet release of death.
5. People who try to use this to grab a brain scan of "General Genghis" and form their legions of doom run into the issue of 1. A statistically significant number of such attempts end with the individual realizing his evil and committing suicide by stabbing himself in the back 27 times before throwing himself down a flight of stairs, while an Imperial agent whistles innocently in the background. 2. Your army of General Genghis types may have their own ideas...
6. Be it in a robot or a clone, many attempts like this end up causing mental illness with a sense that you're not you.
7. Due to all of the above a lot of people trying this tend to not be the most stable or lawful individuals, which adds to the issue.
8. 99 percent of people you meet just think it's creepy. Your creepy. get away you creepy technozombie!

BTW: For this I'm gonna be setting up a story with the attempt of the Glorius Sindalian Empire to rise again, which will mix the players up with AI ships, uploaded minds of crazy people, and such. (The Sindalian Empire is really neat when you consider it as a TL15 polity that blew itself up, an dliked to genocide worlds for being late with the taxes, so you can assume that "research ethics" really weren't thier thing...)
 
This is like the Star Trek transporter.

There's the practical technical side, and then there's the metaphysical aspect of consciousness transfer.
 
If consciousness it quantum then two identical quantum patterns can never exist at the same time. move a copy into the extra dimensions of jump /psionic space and who knows...
 
YEah. I mean, part of my issue is that in Nuemann they mention that citizens have been uploaded--and that's a TL15 society.
Keep in mind that TL is the average level of technology across all fields. Just because a society is TL 15 does not mean it it TL 15 in every type of technology. It can be higher or lower. So Neumann might have been TL 15 overall, but that doesn't mean they weren't TL 16 or TL 17 in certain fields while being only TL 13 or 14 in others.

For instance, most psi tech shows as being TL 16 IIRC. That doesn't meant that the Zhos don't have it despite being a TL 14 culture. It just means that for the majority of tech, TL 14 is what is generally available. They could be specifically better than expected at psi tech if you want without it 'breaking the rules'.
 
One of the really clever things that DGP did, among many, was they divided technological levels into several industry categories and gave a given world a TL for the low and high end of that category.
For example: Planet X /That [OT 0234] [That Subsector of Over There Sector] UWP B456789-A Bases Trade Codes PAG Allegiance
TL Spectrum: Light Military 8/B Heavy Military 8/A Computing 9/C Medical 7/9 and so on.

Now that I think of it, this is probably where I got 'Tech level is not uniform' ideas from.
 
This is like the Star Trek transporter.

There's the practical technical side, and then there's the metaphysical aspect of consciousness transfer.

Yeah, ST:SNW has Dr. M'Benga's daughter's pattern permanently stored in a transporter computer buffer until he can find a cure for a rare disease she has.
 
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One of the really clever things that DGP did, among many, was they divided technological levels into several industry categories and gave a given world a TL for the low and high end of that category.
For example: Planet X /That [OT 0234] [That Subsector of Over There Sector] UWP B456789-A Bases Trade Codes PAG Allegiance
TL Spectrum: Light Military 8/B Heavy Military 8/A Computing 9/C Medical 7/9 and so on.

Now that I think of it, this is probably where I got 'Tech level is not uniform' ideas from.
Same place participation trophies come from. People not wanting to just use numbers as they are defined. People would rather expand the definitions until they mean nothing, just like participation trophies.
 
Computer simulation games with technical trees might be a better example.

You have to build capability as a foundation, before proceeding to the next tier.
 
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