Bored by REH Purism, or "Up With Pastiches!"
- Thread starter Iron_Chef
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I don't think REH Conan's reluctance to murder attractive white women when he could have sex with them instead really qualifies him for 'heart of gold' status. In 'Vale' doesn't he betray an allied chief and massacre an entire black village just to get his hands on a white female?
A
Anonymous
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I believe Howard himself said that he imagined Conan's tales to be the ones you hear from the man himself, told around a bar table or in front of a fireplace, regailing his listeners with exploits of old in no particular order, and sometimes with a bit of confusion about events, as they grow tall in the retelling. That's how I look at the Conan tales, even the pastiches.
The problem with the subsequent authors to adopt Conan is not that they aren't a perfect emulation of Howard, but that they instead bring the specific vision of that author to the character; de Camp's vision of Conan is different from Nyberg's, Carter's, Jordan's, and so forth. I, for example, really like Sean Moore's trio of Conan novels (he died, unfortunately); and it is clear he was very familiar with and wanted to do tribute to Howard's vision. However, I am less interested in Leonard Carpenter's stuff (some of it, anyway) or Roland Green's writings....both guys feel a bit like they were approached about doing the series, but maybe not with the dedication one would expect of a true Howard appreciator.
But remember: when you're playing the Conan RPG, you are engaging in what is effectively the basest form of pastiche! I think disparaging these authors for their efforts is odd, considering we're all doing it with every session we run.
Someone commented that it was worth remembering that we wouldn't have the pastiches but for Howard's originals. True....and if someone hadn't cared enough to keep Conan alive, we might not have these stories in print today, with a persistent fan base and new tales to entertain, let alone an rpg.
>my 2 cents, thanks!<
The problem with the subsequent authors to adopt Conan is not that they aren't a perfect emulation of Howard, but that they instead bring the specific vision of that author to the character; de Camp's vision of Conan is different from Nyberg's, Carter's, Jordan's, and so forth. I, for example, really like Sean Moore's trio of Conan novels (he died, unfortunately); and it is clear he was very familiar with and wanted to do tribute to Howard's vision. However, I am less interested in Leonard Carpenter's stuff (some of it, anyway) or Roland Green's writings....both guys feel a bit like they were approached about doing the series, but maybe not with the dedication one would expect of a true Howard appreciator.
But remember: when you're playing the Conan RPG, you are engaging in what is effectively the basest form of pastiche! I think disparaging these authors for their efforts is odd, considering we're all doing it with every session we run.
Someone commented that it was worth remembering that we wouldn't have the pastiches but for Howard's originals. True....and if someone hadn't cared enough to keep Conan alive, we might not have these stories in print today, with a persistent fan base and new tales to entertain, let alone an rpg.
>my 2 cents, thanks!<
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Tori Bergquist said:
Right, but we aren't trying to publish our game sessions as "official". I am not arguing against pastiches per se - I read a lot of them (I even have some Perry Mason pastiches) - but I am arguing that just because someone publishes fan fiction, that doesn't make the pastiches official. Just fun.
Vince, give it up, this is an arguement which can't be won and is only going to degenerate into nastiness as it has above.
If you people who like the pastiches want to use them and call them real and official, more power to you. I don't have to and neither does anybody else who feels as I do.
However if you insist on ramming the crap down our throats and Mongoose is some how convinced that the non-pureist are in the majority and therefore right and they start putting it un-filtered into thier product, well I just won't buy it. I will cut my losses with the core book and Skelos cause thats all I NEED to run the game I want to run.
David Broussard
rook111@gt.rr.com
If you people who like the pastiches want to use them and call them real and official, more power to you. I don't have to and neither does anybody else who feels as I do.
However if you insist on ramming the crap down our throats and Mongoose is some how convinced that the non-pureist are in the majority and therefore right and they start putting it un-filtered into thier product, well I just won't buy it. I will cut my losses with the core book and Skelos cause thats all I NEED to run the game I want to run.
David Broussard
rook111@gt.rr.com
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Buxom Princess said:
What's with the name-calling?
Buxom Princess said:
Your argument is weak here. Conan was very popular during its run in Weird Tales. It was popular enough that when August Derleth started printing H.P. Lovecraft with Arkham House that he frequently got requests to reprint the Conan tales. He eventually reprinted some in 1946's "Skull Face and Others", and actually put in an argument in the introduction as to why he would not ever consider reprinting ALL the Conan stories (they were too gory and violent).
Gnome Press printed Conan stories in hardback in the 1950's (L. Sprague de Camp was involved in this effort), yet the editing and pastiches included in the latter part of that series failed to turn Conan into the marketing sensation he is today.
Although it is true that the Lancer paperbacks exploded Conan into a household word, that had more to do with the Frazetta cover art than the pastiches included in the volume. Given the same art, even if the stories were pure Howard, the same result would have come about, so this is a weak argument in favour of pastiches.
Buxom Princess said:
Kept the character of Conan available, you mean. Most of the Tor pastiches fail to even mention Robert E. Howard at all in the credits. Someone picking up the Tor series would not necessarily know that REH created the character. Few people know Conan has been around since the 1930s.
It is a false argument to say that pastiches are required to maintain a fan base. Many extremely famous characters do not require pastiches. Pastiches are certainly published for many of these characters, but no one argues that they are "official" or even necessary. They are just for fun. Keeping Howard in print would succeed in keeping Conan and other Howard characters popular. Characters like Elric, Solomon Kane, Frodo Baggins, Tarzan, John Carter of Mars, Paul Atreides, Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser and so forth do not require pastiches to remain in the public eye. All they need is someone to keep reprinting the original material, something no one was willing to do for Conan until recently.
Buxom Princess said:
Please stop the name calling.
Buxom Princess said:
This paragraph was completely uncalled for. Promoting suicide on these boards is unnecessary.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
rook111 said:
David, you are absolutely right.
I'd just like to apologize for any offense I may have given in this thread. Certainly, some of my posts were stated in provocative terms, and I took a kind of perverse delight in attempting to shock those with opposing viewpoints, while entertaining myself and those who shared my views. I often did not take into account the hard feelings I might have been engendering, and for that, I was wrong and am sorry.
I've had a bit of a hard time putting my feelings into words, but Vincent Darlage summed it up beautifully as "the pastiches excite you for some reason." That is true. I honestly can't remember for 100% certain, but looking back to 1983, I think I read Robert Jordan's Conan books before I read Howard or anybody else (with the sole 1978 exception of an issue of Savage Sword of Conan with deCamp's Curse of the Monlith adapted on the cover). I think my interest in Conan was then renewed by the recent release of the first movie and by the new attaction at Universal Studios, which I attended (and was enraptured by) while on vacation with my family. I even bought a pair of plastic Conan swords so I could duel my sister. The swords didn't outlast the first night's fighting (cheap crap), but my enthusiasm for Conan did.
I initially bought Jordan's Conan the Invincible, read it on my trip, thought it was the greatest book I had ever read (up there with Priest Kings of Gor) because of the detailed setting, the characters (especially Karela and Hordo) and the high nudity, sex and violence quota. I was twelve or thirteen at the time. I went back to the bookstore before we caught the flight home and bought the other two Jordan novels: CONAN THE DEFENDER and CONAN THE UNCONQUERED. Then I bought all the Ace paperbacks (I was a huge Frazetta fan) and remember being disappointed by them. They did not seem to have the same level of sex and violence on display or the same style of writing that flew off the page. I bought everything Jordan wrote for Conan, even the Destroyer novelization. I thought nobody could write better than Robert Jordan, and when he stopped writing Conan, I stopped reading Conan, except for the comics. To me, Robert Jordan was Conan, and everybody else failed to capture Conan for me. I knew Conan was old and created by Howard, but didn't care. I thought he was PERFECTED by Jordan. So that's how I felt about it in the 80s.
Since this January, while waiting for the Conan RPG to come out, I reread the first four Jordan pastiches and loved them all just as much as when I first read them. I haven't gotten around to rereading his last two Conans yet, because I've been too busy reading tons of pastiches by other authors and all my old Savage Sword of Conan magazines. I've also read around a half dozen of the "uncut" Howard stories (as well as a few of the deCamp revisions or pastiche shorts), and TBH, I was a little bored by them in parts, or else thought them seriously flawed from bordering on the ridiculous (Tower of the Elephant--I just think an elephant headed alien is too bizarre to be believable--although I have no trouble believing in squid-headed aliens like Cthulhu, so go figure). So, I went from being excited about rereading the now "uncut" REH Conan to being rather apathetic. I find myself far more excited about reading John Maddox Roberts' pastiches. So much so, that after my initial foray into REH, I set him aside in favor of more pastiches. To me, the pastiches, while some are flawed (he saves the world entirely too much), capture what Conan means to me, that same spirit of heroic adventure that compels me to play RPGs for the past twenty-one years and forseeable future. I know this is not a popular opinion to hold, but nostalgia commands me... :roll: Maybe it's because the pastiches are the equivalent of literary "fast food" and Howard is the equivalent of a seven course meal. Maybe I'm making a mistake. Maybe my opinion is hopelessly "wrong", but it is sincerely how I feel, at least at this time. I'll be the first to admit it when and if I change my mind.
That said (and off on a tangent), I lost all interest in Jordan after he quit writing Conan pastiches. Never read or had any interest in Wheel of Time; I think I felt somehow "betrayed" when he quit, even though that's silly. I do plan on finishing the Coming of Conan when I finish my pile of pastiches and have "no other choice" (I have the Kull collection from the 70s too and REH's Red Sonya story "Shadow of the Vulture" in Echoes of Valor III to read as well).
I've had a bit of a hard time putting my feelings into words, but Vincent Darlage summed it up beautifully as "the pastiches excite you for some reason." That is true. I honestly can't remember for 100% certain, but looking back to 1983, I think I read Robert Jordan's Conan books before I read Howard or anybody else (with the sole 1978 exception of an issue of Savage Sword of Conan with deCamp's Curse of the Monlith adapted on the cover). I think my interest in Conan was then renewed by the recent release of the first movie and by the new attaction at Universal Studios, which I attended (and was enraptured by) while on vacation with my family. I even bought a pair of plastic Conan swords so I could duel my sister. The swords didn't outlast the first night's fighting (cheap crap), but my enthusiasm for Conan did.
I initially bought Jordan's Conan the Invincible, read it on my trip, thought it was the greatest book I had ever read (up there with Priest Kings of Gor) because of the detailed setting, the characters (especially Karela and Hordo) and the high nudity, sex and violence quota. I was twelve or thirteen at the time. I went back to the bookstore before we caught the flight home and bought the other two Jordan novels: CONAN THE DEFENDER and CONAN THE UNCONQUERED. Then I bought all the Ace paperbacks (I was a huge Frazetta fan) and remember being disappointed by them. They did not seem to have the same level of sex and violence on display or the same style of writing that flew off the page. I bought everything Jordan wrote for Conan, even the Destroyer novelization. I thought nobody could write better than Robert Jordan, and when he stopped writing Conan, I stopped reading Conan, except for the comics. To me, Robert Jordan was Conan, and everybody else failed to capture Conan for me. I knew Conan was old and created by Howard, but didn't care. I thought he was PERFECTED by Jordan. So that's how I felt about it in the 80s.
Since this January, while waiting for the Conan RPG to come out, I reread the first four Jordan pastiches and loved them all just as much as when I first read them. I haven't gotten around to rereading his last two Conans yet, because I've been too busy reading tons of pastiches by other authors and all my old Savage Sword of Conan magazines. I've also read around a half dozen of the "uncut" Howard stories (as well as a few of the deCamp revisions or pastiche shorts), and TBH, I was a little bored by them in parts, or else thought them seriously flawed from bordering on the ridiculous (Tower of the Elephant--I just think an elephant headed alien is too bizarre to be believable--although I have no trouble believing in squid-headed aliens like Cthulhu, so go figure). So, I went from being excited about rereading the now "uncut" REH Conan to being rather apathetic. I find myself far more excited about reading John Maddox Roberts' pastiches. So much so, that after my initial foray into REH, I set him aside in favor of more pastiches. To me, the pastiches, while some are flawed (he saves the world entirely too much), capture what Conan means to me, that same spirit of heroic adventure that compels me to play RPGs for the past twenty-one years and forseeable future. I know this is not a popular opinion to hold, but nostalgia commands me... :roll: Maybe it's because the pastiches are the equivalent of literary "fast food" and Howard is the equivalent of a seven course meal. Maybe I'm making a mistake. Maybe my opinion is hopelessly "wrong", but it is sincerely how I feel, at least at this time. I'll be the first to admit it when and if I change my mind.
That said (and off on a tangent), I lost all interest in Jordan after he quit writing Conan pastiches. Never read or had any interest in Wheel of Time; I think I felt somehow "betrayed" when he quit, even though that's silly. I do plan on finishing the Coming of Conan when I finish my pile of pastiches and have "no other choice" (I have the Kull collection from the 70s too and REH's Red Sonya story "Shadow of the Vulture" in Echoes of Valor III to read as well).
A
Anonymous
Guest
who do you think would win--Conan or Drizz't?
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Anonymous
Guest
hi Vincentnice to hear more reasonable opinions from a polite gentleman + scholar.
but ofcourse i have to say -
" what's with all the - POINTLESS point by point over-analysis of my very reasonable + still valid points ?!?"
[ did u take lessons from aguaman at conan.no forum ?!? :wink: ]
i will spare u all any detailed attempts to re-inforce my simple valid points . valid + correct points need no whimpering over-defending.
[ + i have a busy life ]
-
we all have a right to express our sometimes strong + emotional opinions + even anger on these forums.
usually i am polite + sarcastic + very cheeky.
but even when i explode i do it with some sick humour + style.
if u think my irate words are bad name calling u have led a very sheltered life !?!
some of the exchanges on here are full of far worse raw swearing!
i luv most of reh s work, but i do not blindly worship him as a genius-god like some flawed golems do so loudly.
+ i hate the current cpi tossers for various valid reasons!
-
i look forward to politely jousting with u in future
keep up the good reh + rpg work!
--
A
Anonymous
Guest
First off, I hope that I didn't offend anyone with my posts, either. That certainly wasn't my intention. I know that I won't win over anyone to my opinion, the same as I won't change mine. We're all fans for whatever reason, and we can always agree to disagree.
Iron Chef, I do respect you. 8) You stated your opinions and arguments without ever being rude or disrespectful, unlike others who have posted.
As far as being a mindless REH-worshipper, look, I've read several of the pastiches. I did not like them. I prefer REH's work...not everything the man wrote is gold, mind you, but even his worst Conan stories have something good in them. I can't say that about too many of the pastiches I've read. Jordan's were OK, but again, I prefer REH's version.
Oh, don't worry Vincent, I don't take suggestions that I kill myself very seriously, especially from people who claim to be very naked while sweeping up ashes or whatever she was babbling on about. :wink:
One more thing....Conan could kick Drizzt's a$$.
Iron Chef, I do respect you. 8) You stated your opinions and arguments without ever being rude or disrespectful, unlike others who have posted.
As far as being a mindless REH-worshipper, look, I've read several of the pastiches. I did not like them. I prefer REH's work...not everything the man wrote is gold, mind you, but even his worst Conan stories have something good in them. I can't say that about too many of the pastiches I've read. Jordan's were OK, but again, I prefer REH's version.
Oh, don't worry Vincent, I don't take suggestions that I kill myself very seriously, especially from people who claim to be very naked while sweeping up ashes or whatever she was babbling on about. :wink:
One more thing....Conan could kick Drizzt's a$$.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Hi!Buxom Princess said:
Buxom Princess said:
1) Doing it point by point helps me stay organized and focused.
2) Can you prove that your points are both reasonable AND valid with solid evidence?
Buxom Princess said:
I don't think I have ever read any posts from aguaman. I am not even sure I have ever been on that forum.
Buxom Princess said:
You still need to prove those points are valid and correct, which you have not. I don't require whimpering or over-defending, but some evidence would be appreciated.
Buxom Princess said:
Who doesn't?
Buxom Princess said:
I'll need some evidence to that effect, as I have not seen any exchanges on here that involved raw swearing to that degree. Can you direct me to a sample post to prove your assertation?
Buxom Princess said:
Are you name-calling again, or do you actually know some flawed golems? You should also present some evidence that these golems actually worship Robert Ervin Howard. Do they have organized services? What exactly does their religion postulate as far as theology?
Buxom Princess said:
Claiming a reason to be valid without providing proof of validity is an ineffective and useless method of debate. You need to supply evidence that support your assertions.
Buxom Princess said:i look forward to politely jousting with u in future
keep up the good reh + rpg work!
--
Thanks! I'll certainly try!
slaughterj
Mongoose
lionmane said:
Has anyone said this?
slaughterj
Mongoose
rook111 said:
I think what I said earlier yet again applies:
"Again, I don't think anyone is asking for the pastiche material to be treated as canon, but rather that it serves as useful supplementary material and inspirations for gaming sessions."
There's nothing wrong with a supplement being produced which draws from the pastiche material once Howard's material has been exhausted (which I'm sure it will be after the first three books).
slaughterj
Mongoose
Mongoose Old Bear said:
Don't worry, as soon as the dual-licensing from CPI and Tolkien's people comes through, we'll get that pastiche
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