Bored by REH Purism, or "Up With Pastiches!"

[Orkin]

Even the worst of the pastiches are based off of Howard's originals, and not other pastiches.

 

[Johannixx]

When I picked up Conan the RPG, I was so utterly glad to see that the vast majority of the book was based on canon Howard. No other author has captured the grittiness and grim nature of the world like Howard, not even the relatively good pastiches by DeCamp and Carter that were included in the Ace paperbacks. I mean, I liked Black Tears, but it wasn't even close to Queen of the Black Coast.

 

[Gralhruk]

Even then, I felt that there was something fundamentally missing from the non-REH stories - just as I consider Boris Valejo's Conan to be markedly inferior to Frazetta's.

In his prose, REH achieved passages of intense vitality and even beauty, while not a one of the pastiche writers has given me a scene with anything near the intensity of Conan's talk of the afterlife with Belit, or the savage joy I felt reading him challenge his foes with "Who dies first?"

I strongly agree with this. I read the DeCamp/Carter edited series back when I was in high school (some 20 years ago). Upon reading the Coming of Conan the Cimmerian recently, it struck me that many of the passages that had stuck in my mind for the past 20 years were present. Howard has a way of imbuing his words with a vividness and clarity that is all the more amazing given it's concise execution. I think the analogy of Vallejo:Frazetta is very appropriate.

I haven't read any other Conan pastiches (Carpenter, Jordan, etc.). I have occaisionally thumbed through them at the bookstore, but what I read therein never convinced me they were worth buying.

 

[slaughterj]

I much prefer the purist approach in the rulebooks to treating any old pastiche as canon.

I don't think anyone is trying to treat pastiche as canon. The REH works are great reads, yes, but I agree with Iron Chef that the pastiches are quite useful bases for material to use in the RPG. The RPG and especially the games you play in it are pastiches of a sort themselves, so I see no reason that people should feel the need to be purist-snobs about the material. I'm glad that the early products for the game have stuck with pure REH as a starting point, but think the pastiches will be a useful resource for some later supplements, adventures, etc., but of course they shouldn't and probably won't be treated as canon.

 

[Erlik the Red]

Well, after seeing the epiloge at the end of Conan the Barbarian back in the mid eightees, a young easily influenced 8th grade mind went out the next week to Waldenbooks to buy his first Conan novel, to see if Conan did indeed become a king by his own hand. I think the first novel I picked up was one of Jordan's conan tales. From that day on I was hooked. Ten years later, I now own just about every Conan title ever pubished (in one form or another), and have enjoyed them all heartily. Personally I think no one matches the sheer grittyness and grim determination of the Howard works, but the patiches by De camp and carter, and the novels by the new age authors should not be discarded out of hand. Many have wonderful tales sticking to the true Conan form (others are really really bad), and make wonderful sources of information for the Coan world. For thousse of you out there who have palyers who have read all the REH tales, the recent novels are great recources to draw from to confound the player who has read everything. Im my campaign Im currently drawing on "conan and the Spider god" for information on the religious cult of Zath. My players, old REH fans, and newbies alike are having a blast. It doesnt matter the soure of the tale, as long as you maintain the REH conan style.

Anyhow, thanks mongoose for publishing the Conan product, youve made this Sword and sorcery fans day.
Erlik the Red, reaver of the Vanir

 

[Yuan-Ti]

I have never read the pastiches but I do love REH's CONAN, so my take on this is a bit different from some. If the pastiches have contain gold bits, then I have no problem with Mongoose mining them for gold. On the other hand, what I have read about the pastiches seems indisputable -- some of them change facts and concepts presented by REH. Well, you cannot make a RPG based on competing interpretations of events and setting. You have to choose -- and in that case, as I am impressed with REH's writing and ideas, I think they should stick with the original.

On the other hand, if REH has only mentioned a city in passing and one of the pastiche writers has given us an excellent description, background of a city and filled it with memorable characters, all of which is in keeping with Howard's ideas about the setting -- then Mongoose should use that to bring parts of Hyboria alive.

Maybe I'm a pragmatist more than a purist but that's how I feel. Keep what Howard gave us as pure as possible because it is GOLD, but fill it in with gold crafted by others where there are gaps, as long as the non-Howard stuff is true to Howard's work and not of markedly inferior quality.

Sheesh, I sound stupid when I write. But you get the idea.

 

[Yokiboy]

That said, I am glad the main RPG book is as purist as possible, as that honours REH and his work. Pastiches should definitely be regarded as supplemental filler, and that is fine by me.

I completely agree. What about The Road of Kings, pastiches or not?

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Jason Durall]

I completely agree. What about The Road of Kings, pastiches or not?

It uses materials from the pastiches. I have seen this mentioned on the forums previously (but can't remember where).

 

[GrayPumpkin]

I for one love the fact that the books have so far stayed pastiche free. I will buy Road of Kings because I know Vincent will stay true to that Howard vision and what he uses from the pastiches will be the gems.
I’m not surprised that Mongoose plans to delve more into the pastiches as the books go on. After all they need something to publish and there is an audience out there for it.
I doubt it will be that audience though, I look over the more pastiche derived stuff after all good ideas are good ideas and maybe I'll bite, but if they are anything like the pastiches I’ve read, I won’t be picking them up.

 

[Anonymous]

I mean, without all the pastiche material, there would never have been a Conan movie, comic, or this RPG.

Well, that statement implies:

Every Conan fan thinks Ahnuld's movie(s) are great - I for one cannot
stand them! They are as pastiche as pastiche can be!!!

As far as the comics - some are good, some are great, some are awful.
The great ones seem to be based directly on REH stories.

I think this RPG would have done fine without the bulk of the pastiche
material. To this day I have only read the Ace books, some de Camp
and Carter, and the Coming of Conan. Based on that, I so looked forward
to this RPG.

 

[Infidel-X]

Hmmmm ok, so...

For those REH purists. Wouldn't any conan d20 story/game be a pastiche? So wouldn't you as GM's be violating your most holy of holys?! :wink:

 

[VincentDarlage]

Hmmmm ok, so...

For those REH purists. Wouldn't any conan d20 story/game be a pastiche? So wouldn't you as GM's be violating your most holy of holys?! :wink:

Yes, but we aren't trying to pass off our games as canonical or official. I enjoy a good pastiche. I read Tarzan pastiches, Sherlock Holmes pastiches, Conan pastiches, Star Trek pastiches, Star Wars pastiches, Cormac mac Art pastiches...

There is a difference between enjoying pastiche for what it is and calling it canon.

I enjoyed several of L. Sprague de Camp's efforts, but that doesn't make them canonical. Calling a pastiche canon is like writing a song in the style of your favourite musician, playing/singing it in their style while imitating their voice, and then insisting that it belongs on their albums.

 

[elforcelf]

I love all Conan expect for the second movie and that..that..cartoon. :shock: elforcelf.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Actually, this was all an April Fool's Day joke. I hate pastiches. Down with pastiches! BOOOOO! Keep Conan pure!

 

[Red Tulwar]

Actually, this was all an April Fool's Day joke. I hate pastiches. Down with pastiches! BOOOOO! Keep Conan pure!

You are the Devil, Chef. :twisted:


I'd like to continue the pastiche-bashing though. For instance, I recently re-read Conan the Buccaneer and Conan of the Isles. Man, both of those books were complete turds. The plot was sort of interesting in Buccaneer, but I just couldn't get past the Sigurd the jolly Vanir pirate character. His ridiculous pirate banter dialog really ruined it for me.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Actually, this was all an April Fool's Day joke. I hate pastiches. Down with pastiches! BOOOOO! Keep Conan pure!

You are the Devil, Chef. :twisted:

Actually, this is the real APRIL FOOLS! You fell into my nefarious trap! I really do LOVE pastiches! Bwahahaha!!! :twisted:

 

[Red Tulwar]

Actually, this is the real APRIL FOOLS! You fell into my nefarious trap! I really do LOVE pastiches! Bwahahaha!!! :twisted:

D'oh! That's it, Chef. Roll for initiative, I'm coming for you.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Actually, this is the real APRIL FOOLS! You fell into my nefarious trap! I really do LOVE pastiches! Bwahahaha!!! :twisted:

D'oh! That's it, Chef. Roll for initiative, I'm coming for you.

Wait'll you see what else I've got up my ______ for April Fools!

 

[Anonymous]

over the years since r e howard, cpi [conan licencers] have allowed over 50 conan pastiche books [cps] !
with almost no quality control from cpi its amazing that there are so many good + very entertaining cps for us rpg fans!
[ i hold reh s classic stories as the best ofcourse. but some of the cps are very good indeed! ]
-
as most of u know, we GREAT RPG FANS will devour any books that we can use ideas from into our gaming + conversations!
we are not so fussy about great writing as long as they have some new + cool ideas for our beloved genre.

but the new cpi [bast##ds] are not producing any more cps + are trying to disown them all!
they have even disgracefully abused 1 of the best cps writers [ emerald lotus by john hocking] !
they have had his 2nd book + pi##ed him about for the last 6 years before dumping him without any sane reason!
so don't trust cpi, they have no honour code like conan. :evil:
-
may mongoose loot all the good stuff from all the cps for future rpg use!
there's plenty of good 'treasure' in them!
-
+ why couldnt cpi let mongoose use some of the great conan art from all the book covers + comics ?!?
cause most of the art in the rpg book is cra p!
-
may Set take the current cpi - - - :twisted:

 

[Iron_Chef]

I loved John C. Hocking's Conan And The Emerald Lotus! I can't believe they didn't publish his second book. I did a search on him and all that came up is the one book! Criminal. That Hocking guy could write Conan with the best of them.