Boating and other Basic Skills

I've been working on my own system, which just by coincidence correlates really well with the system in the Ravenloft campaign sourcebook. The main difference is that while Ravenloft goes from 0 to 10 and stops at the Reformation Era, mine goes from 0.5 to 5+ and allows for fractional tech levels. (The Ravenloft TLs would be like tech level 0.9 through 1.9).

The tech level of an item would be the level at which it becomes invented. The item can be made before then, but the further back, the harder it is to make the item. Perhaps -10% cummulative for every 0.1 level difference. (-30% at -0.2, -60% at -0.3) If the penalty is 100% or more, then the Legendary Inventor Legendary Ability is required.

I'm still basically GURPS-ish with regard to using an item. Primitive warriors would have no problem with a sword or a spear, and if you showed them which way to handle a lightsaber they could get the gist pretty quickly. Modern soldiers (tech level 2 or 3) would not be familiar with swords or bows, but would be familiar with guns.

For the record, currently our society is at level 3.08, identified by the widespread usage of camera cellphones. The modern campaign I am contemplating is set in the 1970s, or level 2.8. The World War II game I ran was level 2.6. I estimate level 3.0 was achieved approximately 1995. There is a kind of "Toffler effect" in that it may take thousands of years to get from 1.0 to 1.1, but only 15 years to get from 2.9 to 3.0.
 
Rurik said:
You could say any tech X levels below the characters tech level requires a Lore(archaic tech) roll to use.

I think of Scotty in the eighties: "Computer On!"

Yeah, that is *exactly* what I'm looking for :)

The problem is the modern characters are now making Lore rolls to use that fork ;)

The solution may just be to have a TL "U" for universal on certain items...
 
mthomason said:
Rurik said:
You could say any tech X levels below the characters tech level requires a Lore(archaic tech) roll to use.

I think of Scotty in the eighties: "Computer On!"

Yeah, that is *exactly* what I'm looking for :)

The problem is the modern characters are now making Lore rolls to use that fork ;)

The solution may just be to have a TL "U" for universal on certain items...

Yeah, I was thinking there need to be exceptions. Using a gun is pretty intuitive no matter what the tech level. Though maybe operating the safety or reloading may not be...
 
The answer is GURPS is to consider whether the character's background provides something to work with. A bronze-age warrior could probably pick up the fundamentals of pointing a rifle at an enemy and shooting a lot faster than a medieval knight could figure out how to use a universal remote control.

(Or even faster than a 21st century person can figure out how to use a universal remote control. You push the wrong button on one of those things, and you may have to forget about watching whatever it was you had your heart set on watching, unless you want to spend half an hour figuring out what is hooked up to what and what is active and what is standing by and what had been unplugged when sis was vacuuming.)

If there is no teacher available, then I'd implement something like an Artifact Skill in Gamma World. The original Gamma World rulebook even had some cool charts to figure out if you figured out how to make it work, broke it, or even hurt yourself.

(Of course, then some guy succeeded at figuring out how to make a grenade work -- he pulled the pin out and discovered that that made the thing explode. Gamma World can be a fun game.)
 
Rurik said:
Yeah, I was thinking there need to be exceptions. Using a gun is pretty intuitive no matter what the tech level. Though maybe operating the safety or reloading may not be...

Methinks the other way around this is to mark which individual skills are affected by TLs and which are not.

If you've been trained to use a particular type of weapon, it shouldn't matter what the technology inside is. A lightsaber uses sword skill, a .44 Magnum uses pistol skill, and a blaster *also* uses pistol skill.

Use of Mechanisms, on the other hand, is penalised by each tech level up or down from the character's current TL. Ditto for engineering, computer operation, etc.

(could even include an optional rule requiring a Mechanisms roll to change the mag in a weapon if it isnt at your own TL, for people that like that level of detail)
 
I would say that there probably would be modifiers which would apply on a case-by-case basis.

Perhaps a person could use his Firearms skill to use a blaster, but the difference in handling would probably mean he gets a penalty until he got used to the way it worked. I wouldn't base it on tech level, but on a feeling for how closely it related to his previous experience.
 
Yeah the problem is getting the perfect balance that allows realism in the rules without having to go look them up each time :)

Oh well I'll sleep on it (it's nearly 2am) and see if some quick, easy, yet realistic rule hits me in the morning :)
 
mthomason said:
Rurik said:
Yeah, I was thinking there need to be exceptions. Using a gun is pretty intuitive no matter what the tech level. Though maybe operating the safety or reloading may not be...

Methinks the other way around this is to mark which individual skills are affected by TLs and which are not.

If you've been trained to use a particular type of weapon, it shouldn't matter what the technology inside is. A lightsaber uses sword skill, a .44 Magnum uses pistol skill, and a blaster *also* uses pistol skill.

Use of Mechanisms, on the other hand, is penalised by each tech level up or down from the character's current TL. Ditto for engineering, computer operation, etc.

(could even include an optional rule requiring a Mechanisms roll to change the mag in a weapon if it isnt at your own TL, for people that like that level of detail)

Fair enough.

A high tech laser pistol might have a completely different safety mechanism. It could be thumb printed in in some other way bio keyed to the owner, and only fire when held in a certain way (thumb has to be resting on the right spot). A person trained on that kind of pistol might not be have any concept of a mechanical safey switch. That was where I was coming from.

Optional rule sounds like a good place for it, some people may not want that kind of complexity.
 
Well, some modern-day people would have trouble finding the safety on a modern-day weapon :)

I think a GM's notes box should cover safeties, etc pretty perfectly then. A little something to let the GM know that if it suits their purposes they can require a TL-penalised mechanisms roll for things such as changing the mag, putting the safety on/off, etc. After all that kind of thing works great when done at the right time... usually when there's something large with too many teeth charging at you at speed.

I'd hate to complicate every single use of the weapon with it, but it's perfect to worry players with when they need it in a hurry (hehe) In fact it fits with normal skill use anyway - no roll really needed if it's just a matter of spending twenty minutes figuring it out, only for if you need it in a hurry :)
 
Rurik said:
mthomason said:
Rurik said:
Yeah, I was thinking there need to be exceptions. Using a gun is pretty intuitive no matter what the tech level. Though maybe operating the safety or reloading may not be...

Methinks the other way around this is to mark which individual skills are affected by TLs and which are not.

If you've been trained to use a particular type of weapon, it shouldn't matter what the technology inside is. A lightsaber uses sword skill, a .44 Magnum uses pistol skill, and a blaster *also* uses pistol skill.

Use of Mechanisms, on the other hand, is penalised by each tech level up or down from the character's current TL. Ditto for engineering, computer operation, etc.

(could even include an optional rule requiring a Mechanisms roll to change the mag in a weapon if it isnt at your own TL, for people that like that level of detail)

Fair enough.

A high tech laser pistol might have a completely different safety mechanism. It could be thumb printed in in some other way bio keyed to the owner, and only fire when held in a certain way (thumb has to be resting on the right spot). A person trained on that kind of pistol might not be have any concept of a mechanical safey switch. That was where I was coming from.

Optional rule sounds like a good place for it, some people may not want that kind of complexity.


I just like the idea of going with "if you got the skill you can use it".

It is just that they didn't teach autoloading pistol back in the middle ages.

Oh, I'm not sure if it will help, but according to the Star Wars RPGs not everyone can use a lightsaber. The fact the the damn thing can cut through practically anythning made them very difficult to use. MOve the blade wrong, and you could cut yourself in half.

So maybe having a lightsaber skill makes sense. If club and sword use two differenct skills...

You could just have it default to half of sword without much risk.


Besides, once you reach a certain point in figuring out once item, you can usually apply what you have learned on other items from a similar tech level. If you taught the barbiaran how to use a revolver, he could probably figure out how to work a pistol or rifle. Probably even how to drive a car-if he doesn't kill himself first.

Gamma World had rules for stuff like this.

Maybe for RQ you could have a technology skill that characters use when trying to dope out some piece of tech for a higher TL. You can oppose the skill with something like 10x time difference in TLs.
 
The tech level system I've been designing is heavily influenced by Alvin Toffler's books, especially _The Third Wave_. The basic concept is that each whole number represents a societal paradigm, so that "Level 1" societies are all agricultural and make little use of machinery powered by artificial fuels, "Level 2" societies are driven by economics and mechanical inventions and expect continual improvement in their machines. People in "Level 3" societies are comfortable with concepts like virtual reality and understand computers in ways that "Level 2" societies can't even dream of.

(How many people in the 1950s, tech level 2.7, thought that a major use of computers in the 1990s would be to display porn on guy's viewing monitors?)

The .1 levels represent a revolution within the dominating paradigm: the use of steam locomotion, the development of electrical devices, the developement of the internal combustion engine, etc. The .01 levels would be divisions within the .1 levels: e.g. level 2.6 would be from the development of new weapons brought in at the end of World War I such as the tank, which started to restore mobility to war, to the end of World War II, with both sides racing to develope better and more effective weapons. Level 2.60 would be 1918-1921, level 2.61 would be 1921-1924, etc. In an ongoing war like World War II, 0.001 levels might be significant to map the introduction of critical new weapons.

I've been giving some thought to how the Legendary Inventor ability would work. Examples of Legendary Inventors would include Leonardo Da Vinci and Daedelus. But this is getting far from my original intent of figuring out basic skills (as opposed to skills you need a legendary ability to use).
 
I think the optional rule a GM can throw at a player to heighten tension is the way to go.

You don't want players having to keep track of what tech levels they have mastered.
 
atgxtg said:
I just like the idea of going with "if you got the skill you can use it".

It is just that they didn't teach autoloading pistol back in the middle ages.

Yeah, I'm fighting myself on this one. I *hate* overcomplicating things, but when things arent complex enough you end up with glaring holes...

Computer use. Scotty. Perfect example :)

Someone with "Computer Operation" at TL 5 (assuming 5=today) is going to have problems with a TL 10 computer where there's a neural interface instead of a keyboard.

Options:
Use Computer, and penalise by TL
or
Use Computer - Keyboard
Use Computer - Neural
etc.


atgxtg said:
Oh, I'm not sure if it will help, but according to the Star Wars RPGs not everyone can use a lightsaber. The fact the the damn thing can cut through practically anythning made them very difficult to use. MOve the blade wrong, and you could cut yourself in half.
Yeah, I'm just remembering one of the SW novels where a non-Jedi got hold of one and was just using it to cut stuff rather than to fight. Lets go with generic "energy sword" just to clear up any confusion ;)


atgxtg said:
Besides, once you reach a certain point in figuring out once item, you can usually apply what you have learned on other items from a similar tech level. If you taught the barbiaran how to use a revolver, he could probably figure out how to work a pistol or rifle. Probably even how to drive a car-if he doesn't kill himself first.

LOL, now I'm having nightmares of multiple TL columns on the character sheet :(

Too many holes<---------->Just Right<--------->Too complicated
 
Well to simplify:

Once you know how to use something, the TL to learn how really doesn't matter. THe character can use it, and he can train other primitives how to you it.

Most advanced technology is actually designed so any idiot can use it. Anyone who can read & type could do what we are doing now on the message board. How many of us really understand all the technology behind it?

Since RQ is skill based anyway, all the barbarians with M16s won't be able to shoot straight anyway.

Just say that if they are not from a high enough TL, it counts as an advanced skill. Let the character use it at something like half default value should work.
 
Someone with "Computer Operation" at TL 5 (assuming 5=today) is going to have problems with a TL 10 computer where there's a neural interface instead of a keyboard.

At TL 10, you don't use the computer. The computer uses YOU.

This actually could be a concern if I throw time travel into my modern game. I figure level 3.5 computers would be easy for anybody to use, even Igor the Barbarian, because he'd just say "I want gold" and the computer would use its artificial intelligence to narrow down his search, and then print out a map to the nearest gold mine, without him having to know any arcane commands.

(Compare "plug and play" vs the old fashioned "plug into the serial port and then try to get your config.sys file to accept the new device without causing a conflict with your other interrupts, using a Windows 3.1 GUI text editor to add arcane symbols to critical system files.)

There would definitely be situation modifiers that apply if the PCs go just a few decades backwards or forwards through time.
 
Timelords handled this by how they broke up the TLs. At first TLs repesent long periouds of time. For example TL 4 (iron age) is set at 0 AD, but TL 5 (matchlock fireaerms) is set at around 1400 AD. As you get closer to the modern age the TLs get shorter. From 1900 to 2000 is 5 TLs (8-12). But prior to 1900 TLs were 100 years apart.
 
For what it's worth, I made the following modifications/clarifications to basic skills in my Runequest Modern writeup:

Boating: I've clarified that this applies to paddle-driven or oar-driven craft. Motorboats use the Driving skill.

Driving: This applies to any small vehicle which the character is controlling, unless another skill applies (such as boating). This skill does not grant the ability to operate the vehicle, but only to control it under difficult conditions. It is assumed that the ability to operate the vehicle is a function of what the character is familiar with, so a modern character could not drive a chariot until shown how to control it. A modern character might also have trouble with an antique car, which would require a lot more familiarity with how the engine actually operates than a more advanced vehicle requires.

First Aid: This operates in modern settings like in more primitive settings. A character who wishes to administer CPR needs to buy the CPR Training advantage, and can then use the First Aid skill to determine success. CPR Training allows the character to try to revive drowned characters, heart attack victims, and treat other conditions that a primitive character could not treat.

Riding: This skill is also used for bicycles, motorcycles, and other vehicles that a character gets onto rather than into. A character may need to become familiar with the vehicle or mount before being allowed to ride it.

Sleight: This skill complements, but does not replace, the advanced skill of Stage Magic.

Unarmed: This is not really a tech issue, but I don't like having separate Unarmed and Martial Arts skills. I'd rather just have one skill, and allow those with Martial Arts training to do more damage and other tricks that the untrained can not attempt.
 
Utgardloki said:
Unarmed: This is not really a tech issue, but I don't like having separate Unarmed and Martial Arts skills. I'd rather just have one skill, and allow those with Martial Arts training to do more damage and other tricks that the untrained can not attempt.

Why not just have each art be it's own skill, and the player get's the perks when the die roll is under both the applicable skill and the MA. You could even use the MA score as a prereq for Legendary Abilities/Okunden of a particular art.

You could then have MA apply benefits to differenrt skils. For examplle an akidoka might get benefits when making dodge and grapple rolls rather than strikes.
 
I think that a person who has a blue belt in Tae Kwan Do could probably pick up the basics of Karate very easily, even if it takes a little longer to pick up the specific forms. On the other hand, if a Tae Kwan Do guy did start taking Karate lessons, he probably would not learn any faster than if he continued with Tae Kwan Do.

Another thing that I don't know how to do without using my Advantage mechanism is how to allow Martial Artists to do more damage. My current system of allowing an Improved Martial Arts Damage advantage, which can be taken multiple times, probably should work pretty well. The concept is that each time it is taken, a character's Damage Modifier is increased one category for unarmed attacks, as if she had a STR + SIZ of 5 higher than it actually is. Ten hero points per level seems fair.

Other Martial Arts moves can also be defined as Advantages, or Legendary Abilities.

On the other hand, using your suggested specialization rule, I could have specialization skills such as Judo Throw or Martial Arts Parry. So if a PC with 35% in Judo Throw wanted to throw another character off a ledge, he could roll under Judo Throw + Unarmed. A person could probably continue to work on Judo Throw under a Tae Kwon Do instructor.
 
The basics yeah. But there are some styles that have very different ways of handling things. I knew one guy who had taken karate and bbelieved adamantly that the only way th=o handle mulitple oppoents was to try and disable them as quickly as possible to turn itinto a series on one on one fights.One the other hand an akidoka he knew defeated four guys without making an attack. Completely differenrt art style.

Some options for how to get MA to increase damage:

1) For every 25 points or so, you get to improve you STR/SIZ bonus die by one step.

2) Take MA skill/5 and add it to the STR+SIZ total. Same as above, but it looks different.

3) Use the RQ3 double damage if under skill idea. Maybe increase it to triple if above 50% or some such.

I like the specilization rule, I swiped it for a very good series of RPG. They even allow for triciary skills, like Projectile Weapons/Pistols/Walther PPK.
THe subskills are either limited to the main skill or half the main skill. Tireciey skills have the same relationshipto the secondary skill.
 
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