agentwigggles
Cosmic Mongoose
So even though the 3 military careers is bit jank, I do think there lots of valid pre career combos.
Like spacer to merchant academy or colonist to military.
Psionic Career and Basic Training
- Thread starter Fresnel
- Start date
Like spacer to merchant academy or colonist to military.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
In the original character generator, you did have the opportunity to attend intra career skill enhancement academies and schools.
An 'Appeal to consequences'. That a RAI argument. I like to discuss RAW first and be very clear when I step beyond to RAI or house rules.
RAW the text:
"Telepaths are by far the most common among those with psionic potential. If a Traveller chooses Telepathy as their first talent, it will be gained automatically with no need to roll on the Psionic Training table."
"Per previous talent acquisition check -1"
You might reasonably argue (imo) that the acquisition check is automatically passed if Telepathy is the first talent checked. So the next acquisition check is at -1.
Imo this is a valid RAW reading, but so is the opposite. This is ambiguous imo.
It's not ambiguous. The use of the word 'may' clearly means the character has a choice. It would be an odd choice imo, but it is one.
Possible counter to this RAI point: The initial Institute Training is a four month period - it always proceeds entering a Psionic career. A career is also a four year period. If you take a Psionic Career as your first, the four years of on-the-job training in your youth allows all the career's key psionic talents to unlock.
Back to RAW:
FYI there is an interesting section in the AoCS Vol 1 p 254
"Psionic Skills: Intendants and Nobles may develop talents over time as if they were normal skills. If they receive a talent they were not trained in or failed to gain during their initial psionic training, they may attempt again to gain that talent (all previous DMs apply, including the cumulative DM-1 per previous check). If a Traveller rolls the Talent skill choice, they may increase any psionic talent already possessed."
So in RAW the acquisition check penalty still applies to new checks. Let us see what this means.
- Character gets Psionic Testing: PSI 8 (DM 0)
- They attempt to learn all five psionic talents. This places them on a -5 DM to there next acquisition check.
- Later career give them another acquisition check - what does the character need to roll for:
- Telepathy: Roll 9+
- Clairvoyance: 10+
- Telekinesis: 11+
- Awareness: 12
- Teleportation: Impossible
- Further acquisition checks move the impossible zone up one place
My opinion of the Traveller Psionic rules, is that their are set up to be difficult. Making Psionics rare and limited. Even the powers themselves are 'mid'. What we have is a confused tease for players. It's 'Lucy and the Football'.
Bense
Cosmic Mongoose
When the rules themselves are ambiguous an "appeal to consequences" makes sense. It also makes sense when the RAW has unintended consequences.
I took a look back at the 1st edition rulebook. The example of Luka is word-for-word present in the first edition, except that the second part of the example was cut from 2nd edition. The second part of the example in the 1st edition corebook makes it clear that Luka chose only to test for Telepathy and Clairvoyance during PSI determination, and then proceeded into the Psion career. She rolled "Teleportation" on the service skills table during her first term of service, and received the chance to be tested for Teleportation with a DM of -2 for her two previous talent acquisition rolls.
This supports "yes, you don't have to choose to test for all talents during PSI determination. It also indirectly supports the idea that Basic Training does not grant automatic psionic talents, since Luka apparently did not acquire Teleportation in Basic Training (the example does not say what Assignment she chose, unfortunately). 1st Edition had the same Basic Training rules as 2nd.
Book 4: Psion from the first edition also supports the idea that Basic Training does not provide automatic training in psionic talents. It presents the "Dedicated Psion Agency" as an alternate Psion career. Enlisting in the career provides training in one psionic talent to Level-0 without having to roll (though you have to roll randomly to determine which talent). All of the skill tables for this career have Psionic talents on them. Obviously the intent is that Basic Training in this career does not automatically provide any Level-0 psionic talents without the normal learning rolls.
Zhodani careers also have multiple ways to obtain bonuses to PSI (including the Psionic Olympics, which can grant +2 PSI in one term if you win). This gives a possible strategy of, "don't test for all of the talents at PSI determination and hope you get enough PSI boosts to have a higher Characteristic DM and better odds to obtain another talent later in your career."
Yes, the intent of the system is obviously to make it difficult to obtain Psionics and especially difficult to get all of the psionic powers. They're essentially a nice bonus you can add to your character if you're lucky, not something you should try to focus your character on.
If you want to play a Psion Traveller, your best bet is to get your Referee's permission to use the Psionic Community background from the Companion, hope you roll a good PSI rating, and even then don't expect to come away with all of the talents.
Tom B
Cosmic Mongoose
And don't forget the special 'Zhodani' talent which is at -3. At that point, the person would have to roll a 16 on 2D to get it!
What the psionic rules do well enough is return competent characters of another type, that just happen to have one to three hidden talents on top of that. If that were your expectation it's not too disappointing, and in fact playing a pilot or engineer with a couple surprises up his sleeve can be pretty fun. So in that regard they work just fine for me.
On the other hand, if you go in expecting psion to be your central shtick, your niche or "class," you are most likely to be disappointed. And I can see how a new player especially would look at the testing rules and the psionic career and naively assume that rolling a testing event was like unlocking a full class in some other game, then be disappointed when it's not. You still kind of want a day job, or a cover that you're actually good at.
I agree with your central point. Psionics is a side-gig.
However, the core rules offer psionic careers...
To Tha Moon!
Cosmic Mongoose
-4 to their next acquisition check.
If Telepathy is taken as the first Talent, there is no check for Telepathy.
Makes it a little easier for Telepaths.
This is the way.
Tom B
Cosmic Mongoose
I politely disagree
I've always assumed that the automatic gain of telepathy counts as a roll so if you've gained telepathy automatically and rolled for the other 4, then you are at -5 for all other gain rolls from that point onwards. After a few further rolls, they become pointless because every time you roll, the penalty increases by 1.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
This is the part I don't like. No other group of skills makes you roll to learn them with an increasingly large negative modifier for learning other skills. Only psionics does this.
Tom B
Cosmic Mongoose
I don't like it either.
I understand why they were written as they are, so that is was unlikely that any one psion would get all five talents. However, when it comes to learning talents, after the initial five have been rolled for, it becomes virtually impossible to get get them.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Another issue that I have... Anyone, correct Me if I am wrong, is that Psionics are not genetic, but at the same time, not everyone can learn them. I understand issues from having a low PSI score, but flat not being able to learn something, no matter how many times you try, doesn't make much sense to Me. So, since it isn't genetics giving you that limitation, what is it? No other skills get harder to learn at rank 0, only psionic skills. If I want to learn Gun Combat/0, I study for one study period and I get Gun Combat/0. The same is not possible with psionic skills.
Tom B
Cosmic Mongoose
The whole not being genetic thing also has implications for the Consulate. The nobles are psionic, in charge and according to AoCS1 they operate large hereditary estates.
If there's no genetic component, then how come their children are usually psionic and yet those of the proles are usually not?
Can someone please explain that discrepancy?
Or have I misunderstood something somewhere?
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
My understanding of the Zhodani, which may or may not be correct, is that "low-class" Zhodani who are tested and have sufficient psionic strength are then promoted to the "middle-class". From there, if they are powerful psions, they may gain the attention of a noble family and marry into them keeping the numbers of psions in noble families "unnaturally" high. Zhodani experts, please feel free to correct Me if I am wrong.
Edit- Personally, I think that there must be a genetic component, regardless of what Canon seems to say. It doesn't make any internal sense otherwise
Tom B
Cosmic Mongoose
Yes - I agree.
Who said that their children are usually psionic and the proles are usually not? What IS true is that nobles' children are trained even if their psi score is crap, while proles are only trained if their psi scores are really hot.
So if you are the child of a noble, you'll get PSI training even with a PSI 4. Proles only get PSI training if they have a PSI 10+ IIRC
A different issue is that the PSI rules as written seem designed for protagonists, though. Since anyone who gets to roll young enough has some kind of PSI score and usually a pretty decent one. That seems unlikely to be intended to apply to all humaniti.
So if you are the child of a noble, you'll get PSI training even with a PSI 4. Proles only get PSI training if they have a PSI 10+ IIRC
A different issue is that the PSI rules as written seem designed for protagonists, though. Since anyone who gets to roll young enough has some kind of PSI score and usually a pretty decent one. That seems unlikely to be intended to apply to all humaniti.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
and any training at all does make them a psion with psionic mental protections. I am inclined to agree with Vormaerin.
Tom B
Cosmic Mongoose
Thanks - I think I get it now.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
If you think of it as the aristocracy being able to utilize their resources to optimize outcomes, in regard to brining out the maximum psionic potential of their offspring.
Bense
Cosmic Mongoose
This is how I read it. Yes you can get Telepathy without a successful roll if it's your first choice, but it still counts as a previous learning attempt, and your next learning roll attempt is at -1.
Otherwise there would be little point in listing a learning modifier for Telepathy. The rule would just read "all Psions automatically get Telepathy and can then attempt to learn other talents." As written a player who really wants one of the other talents can try to learn it first when the odds are best and then hope to get Telepathy too as a second or third choice.
The "you get Telepathy automatically if you pick it first" rule is new to 2nd edition.
If you are tested with a PSI just below the break to the next Characteristic modifier (like 2, 5, 8, or 11), you might choose to test only for one or two talents at PSI determination and then hope you will get enough PSI boosts during character generation to give you a better chance at learning additional talents in the Psion career or one of the Zhodani or Droyne careers - Zhodani in particular have lots of chances to boost PSI.
