Boating and other Basic Skills

[Utgardloki]

I'm looking at the Basic Skills table on page 6 and I have to wonder, why is Boating a basic skill?

In updating Runequest to the modern era, I decided to apply the rule in GURPS where what a person can do without training depends on the character's background. So a person from the modern era might be able to figure out what to do with a rowboat, but a Bushman from the Kalahari Desert would be lost.

(I saw the movie _The Gods Must Be Crazy_. It's a really cool movie.)

Of course, none of the PCs will be Bushmen from the Kalahari. Still, it seems easiest to apply the GURPS rule than to try to figure out all the things the PCs might be able to puzzle out from modern experience.

It does seem strange to have Boating on the list, however, and to have it based on Strength. I am guessing that they are talking about rowboats, and Strength means how well you can use the oars. That probably wouldn't help use an outboard motor or anything like that.

The PCs should probably put down the most commonly used skills on their character sheets, even if they don't put any points into them. But I am surprized that Boating made the list.

 

[atgxtg]

Boating made it problaby because it was one the old skill lists under Agility skills. Yes it does apply to small craft like rowboats (sailing is covered under the Shiphandling advancedskill), but it would also apply to paddle drive craft like kyacks or canoes-something applicable to some cultures. Keep in mind that rafts, river barges, and ferries would be covered under this skill too.


Since most early civilization develeoped on rivers and depended on river traffic for trade the skill seems very appropriate.

 

[TRose]

Maybe no Bushmen, but I bet many Praxians would have trouble with a boat, along with hilltribemen and even Dwarfs. Trolls on the other hand would know what to do with a boat(eat it for dinner)

 

[atgxtg]

I keep thinking of that River of Cradels adventure.

 

[TRose]

Might add there a big difference between a rowboat and canoe if you not been in both.Rowboats tend to be wide and flatbottom and are slower and more stable and its hard to flip one over.Canoes are faster but if you are a beginer, well expect to get wet is all I can say. Unless you of course with some one who knows what they are doing.

 

[atgxtg]

Might add there a big difference between a rowboat and canoe if you not been in both.Rowboats tend to be wide and flatbottom and are slower and more stable and its hard to flip one over.Canoes are faster but if you are a beginer, well expect to get wet is all I can say. Unless you of course with some one who knows what they are doing.

True, but there is a big difference between a camel and a field mouse, but both are covered under Animal Lore. It is a gross simplication for RQ.


Of course we could always add sepcialties/subskills. Just add the speciality toi the main skill when used. The big advantage would be to make it easier to get high skill scores as rolling greater than 50% for two related skills is easier than rolling over 100% for one skill.

 

[Utgardloki]

It looks like the Boating skill is basically the ability to get a boat to go where you want it to go, when there is some question about that. I can see that coming up if the PCs need to get away from a waterfall, or have to win a boat race.

But when it comes to manuevering a kayak down the rapids, would it be Strength or would it be Dexterity that would make the bigger difference? Maybe Boating should be Strength + Dex.

I would like to apply some sort of rule for specialization, but I'm not sure the best way to do this. I also intend to apply rules for advantages, so perhaps one sort of advantage would be specialization, which would grant bonuses in certain instances. Thus, a character could buy a specialization in Balance or in Canoeing, and gain a +10% bonus in that circumstance.

 

[atgxtg]

I would like to apply some sort of rule for specialization, but I'm not sure the best way to do this. I also intend to apply rules for advantages, so perhaps one sort of advantage would be specialization, which would grant bonuses in certain instances. Thus, a character could buy a specialization in Balance or in Canoeing, and gain a +10% bonus in that circumstance.

SPECILIZATION OPTION #1

Treat each specilization as a sub-skill that adds to the main skill. For example, Boating 20% and Rowboat +15% would be treated at 35% when using a rowboat.

The advantage of the specilizations would be during character advancement, as it will be easier to raise, say rowboat @ 15% then Boating @ 20% (or for a better example, when boating is at 70%).

We could limit the specialty to the base or (or maybe half the base skill).

 

[TRose]

I would just give plus or minus to their skill, depending on what they where using.For example taking a log raft down a river would have a plus to their skill as far as getting there safely but travel would be slow say 20 miles a day. taking a canoe would be -20 to skill but you could make 60 miles a day. Same with animal lore. If a Praxian Nomad was trying to use animal lore on one of his herd beast to figure out why it was spooked he would get 20% to his roll since he grew up with those aninmals.To use same skill on an animal he just met I would give up to -25 on roll since hewould not know its habits.

 

[soltakss]

I'm looking at the Basic Skills table on page 6 and I have to wonder, why is Boating a basic skill?

In updating Runequest to the modern era, I decided to apply the rule in GURPS where what a person can do without training depends on the character's background. So a person from the modern era might be able to figure out what to do with a rowboat, but a Bushman from the Kalahari Desert would be lost.

Of course, none of the PCs will be Bushmen from the Kalahari. Still, it seems easiest to apply the GURPS rule than to try to figure out all the things the PCs might be able to puzzle out from modern experience.

It does seem strange to have Boating on the list, however, and to have it based on Strength. I am guessing that they are talking about rowboats, and Strength means how well you can use the oars. That probably wouldn't help use an outboard motor or anything like that.

The PCs should probably put down the most commonly used skills on their character sheets, even if they don't put any points into them. But I am surprized that Boating made the list.[/quote]

Well, outboard motors are fine for highish tech worlds .... I am by no means skilled on the water, but even I can handle a small rowboat as long as it is calm and I can throw things to the bank. So, having a Boating skill as basic doesn't seem too bad to me.

Praxians and the like regularly have to cross rivers, so they would have some kind of Boating skill, even if they don't use boats.

(I saw the movie _The Gods Must Be Crazy_. It's a really cool movie.)

It's a very funny movie and I have used the "rhino putting out campfires" in my current Praxian campaign, much to the utter bemusement of my players, who still don't believe it!

 

[jadrax]

It is pretty easy to get in a rowboat and make it move, I can do it and I have cirtainly had no training.

 

[simonh]

It is pretty easy to get in a rowboat and make it move, I can do it and I have cirtainly had no training.

I think that's streight to the point. Anyobody put in a boat with a paddle has a reasonable chance of making it go in the direction they want.

I've been in sailing boats and handled sails a few time in my life, in the company of people who know what they are doing and I understand the principles involved, but even so if I was put in a small sailing boat with nobody to help me, I'd have essentialy no chance at all of influencing it's speed or direction with any reliability.

Hence I think it's reasonable to make Boating a basic skill and shiphandling (which includes small sailing boats) an advanced skill.


Simon Hibbs

 

[Utgardloki]

I'm thinking about a case where a Praxian nomad is faced with a rowboat fitted with an outboard motor. The guy might have difficulty getting the thing started, and if he could figure that out, might try to use it as a paddle. The results could be comic.

The Gamma World game had rules for figuring out how to use technological devices. If I ever do anything anachronistic like that, I'll have to make an equivalent skill, maybe based on Int and Pow.

Definitely I think that Boating would not apply to modern, powered craft. That would be based on Dex and Int, or maybe Int and Pow. But I wouldn't imagine that a person who can drive a car would have much trouble figuring out how to drive a motorboat.

 

[Lorgryt]

Trolls on the other hand would know what to do with a boat(eat it for dinner)

Hey! I take offense to that... it is eat it for dinner! You make it sound like we have no lust for life!

 

[Enpeze]

I'm thinking about a case where a Praxian nomad is faced with a rowboat fitted with an outboard motor. The guy might have difficulty getting the thing started, and if he could figure that out, might try to use it as a paddle. The results could be comic.

The Gamma World game had rules for figuring out how to use technological devices. If I ever do anything anachronistic like that, I'll have to make an equivalent skill, maybe based on Int and Pow.

Definitely I think that Boating would not apply to modern, powered craft. That would be based on Dex and Int, or maybe Int and Pow. But I wouldn't imagine that a person who can drive a car would have much trouble figuring out how to drive a motorboat.

In a modern version of MRQ you have to adapt several basic and advanced skills. Boating is not an exception IMO, just the beginning.
A good skill list for modern skills you find in CoC. (especially "Cthulhu Now")
But if you wait a little bit there are maybe other ones which do the work for you. I assume a more modern version of the new RQ like NovaQuest is on its way. Or Eldritch Kingdoms.

 

[atgxtg]

I'm thinking about a case where a Praxian nomad is faced with a rowboat fitted with an outboard motor. The guy might have difficulty getting the thing started, and if he could figure that out, might try to use it as a paddle. The results could be comic.

The Gamma World game had rules for figuring out how to use technological devices. If I ever do anything anachronistic like that, I'll have to make an equivalent skill, maybe based on Int and Pow.

Definitely I think that Boating would not apply to modern, powered craft. That would be based on Dex and Int, or maybe Int and Pow. But I wouldn't imagine that a person who can drive a car would have much trouble figuring out how to drive a motorboat.

In a modern version of MRQ you have to adapt several basic and advanced skills. Boating is not an exception IMO, just the beginning.
A good skill list for modern skills you find in CoC. (especially "Cthulhu Now")
But if you wait a little bit there are maybe other ones which do the work for you. I assume a more modern version of the new RQ like NovaQuest is on its way. Or Eldritch Kingdoms.

THis is pretty much a techonlogy level thing. I could see doing something like halving a skill for each TL it is aobe the PCs. For example, a modern person could use boating to pilot a Boston Whaler, where as the Praxian Nomad is probably going to try and paddle it with a seat cushion.

 

[mthomason]

THis is pretty much a techonlogy level thing. I could see doing something like halving a skill for each TL it is aobe the PCs. For example, a modern person could use boating to pilot a Boston Whaler, where as the Praxian Nomad is probably going to try and paddle it with a seat cushion.

Heh, I'm actually looking at TLs for NovaQuest right now

As a work in progress, what we have is: (and feel free to point out what's wrong)

Every character has a TL.

Every piece of equipment has a TL (actually it has two... but more about that shortly)

For every TL above you a piece of equipment is, you lose 10% on the relevant skill check.

Why two TLs on each item of equipment?

Because theres the TL for *using* it, and the TL for *making or repairing* it.

Take a Star Wars lightsaber - you can train *anyone* to use a funny energy sword (comments about needing to be a Jedi to use one effectively notwithstanding, I could pick one up and slice someones head off if they had their back to me pretty easily)

The technology inside is another matter entirely.

You can probably train a barbarian to drive a car (in time, eventually, after he's ripped the steering wheel off in frustration a few times), but not to fix one (so you're going to have to fit those replacement steering wheels yourself)

I toyed with the idea of making it two-way, so modern characters have problems with ye olde equipment as well, but ran into the problem of what the "usage TL" of a fork would be

Any comments?

 

[atgxtg]

Yeah, I've seen a few games that do stuff like that. Traveller and TimeLords come to mind. Especially TImelords (it covers everything from prehistoric to interstellar travel so TL is a central focus to the game). I think I'll check Future Worlds too. There might be something there.

I'd suggest dropping the usage TL. Basically by the time you can build it, you can use it. You can probably train anyone to use something. It is jut getting them to stop panicing and trying to kill the best with the glowing eyes and jump into it's belly and take it out of park that is tough.

I'd just say that characters can learn to offset the TL penalty with experience. Probably something like every time they raise a related skill 10% they loose a TL penalty.

 

[Rurik]

You can probably train a barbarian to drive a car (in time, eventually, after he's ripped the steering wheel off in frustration a few times), but not to fix one (so you're going to have to fit those replacement steering wheels yourself)

You obviously havn't seen some of my mechanics!

I toyed with the idea of making it two-way, so modern characters have problems with ye olde equipment as well, but ran into the problem of what the "usage TL" of a fork would be

Any comments?

You could say any tech X levels below the characters tech level requires a Lore(archaic tech) roll to use.

I think of Scotty in the eighties: "Computer On!"

 

[mthomason]

I'd suggest dropping the usage TL. Basically by the time you can build it, you can use it. You can probably train anyone to use something. It is jut getting them to stop panicing and trying to kill the best with the glowing eyes and jump into it's belly and take it out of park that is tough.

mmm, the problem with dropping the usage TL is the example of the lightsaber above - it's something anyone can pick up and use, so shouldn't be limited to higher TL characters.

I need *something* that allows for someone to make a very complex machine, yet put a single red button on the front and say "press that and it works". Someone from the middle ages ought to be able to operate that piece of equipment

For a more realistic example. We have a planet equivalent to 20th century earth in technology. Someone lands their 30th century shuttle on it, and drives their little 30th century hovercar around. They leave it unattended, with the controls unlocked.

Now some sod decides to steal it.

The hovercar has a steering wheel, an accelerator pedal, and a brake pedal. Would you penalise the character who had a 40% driving skill for trying to drive the thing away?

And another example:

You give a laser rifle to a modern-day soldier. You point it and pull the trigger to work it. It might be ten tech levels above him, but he ought to be able to hit a target pretty well with it

As characters will come from various backgrounds, we need a way that realistically penalises the character Ug, who was brought up as a tribesman on the fifth moon of Zog. He will not be able to fly the ship, but it shouldn't take long to train him to use an automatic pistol.

No, Ug, don't put it in your mouth... no don't touch that bit!

As I was saying, we need a way to realistically penalise the character Og, brother of the late lamented Ug.