Psionic Career and Basic Training

[Bense]

So any character who gets into a military academy and then takes a difference first career gets two full sets of 'Basic Training' - by RAW.

It's a little ambiguous, actually. Does a pre-career option like Military Academy count as your initial career or not?

If your Ref rules that the military academy "Basic Training" does not count as your first career's Basic Training then by RAW when you start your first full term in the same military branch you picked at the academy you would have to have Basic Training instead of a skill roll.

Which of course would be worthless since you already have all of those skills at Level-0 and Basic Training doesn't improve any skill that you already have at level-0.

 

[Fresnel]

It's a little ambiguous, actually. Does a pre-career option like Military Academy count as your initial career or not?

Imo the text is trivially clear on this point. Military Academy is a pre-career option.

If your Ref rules that the military academy "Basic Training"

If the ref wants to house rule it - that fine. I led my post with that point...

However, the text does not call it Basic Training. Readers can be forgiven for assuming it is as we know such military training is referred to as Basic Training. However, the text does not - I quoted it... In fact it goes further and makes clear it isn't the same as first career basic training.

does not count as your first career's Basic Training then by RAW when you start your first full term in the same military branch you picked at the academy you would have to have Basic Training instead of a skill roll.

Which of course would be worthless since you already have all of those skills at Level-0 and Basic Training doesn't improve any skill that you already have at level-0.

This redundancy doesn't overcome the plain English reading.

Do you dislike the idea of characters gaining two full sets of Service Skills at 0? If so, are you perhaps allowing this emotion to affect your reading?

 

[Condottiere]

If a specific education basis is required as entry to a particular career path.

Like medical doctor.

 

[Bense]

Imo the text is trivially clear on this point. Military Academy is a pre-career option.

A Traveller attends the pre-career option of Military Academy (Marines) and receives the Marine Service Skills: Athletics-0, Vacc Suit-0, Tractis-0, Heavy Weapons-0, Gun Combat-0, and Stealth-0 "as with basic training". He graduates (increasing three of these skills to Level-1 and gaining EDU+1) and is granted automatic entry to the Marines.

When he begins his first term of the Marine career:

A) Because the Military Academy was a pre-career option and not a career, "Marine" counts as his first career. As per the "Basic Training" rule on page 18, during his first term instead of rolling for a skill he undergoes Basic Training and receives the skills on the Marine Service Skills table: Athletics-0, Vacc Suit-0, Tractis-0, Heavy Weapons-0, Gun Combat-0, and Stealth-0. Since he already has all of the Service Skills at level 0 or higher this provides no benefit.

B) Because the Military Academy provided Basic Training, the Marines count as his second instance of receiving Basic Training in a career, so as per the "Basic Training" rule on page 18, for his first term of service instead of rolling for a skill he selects one skill from the Service Table and receives it at Level-0. Since he already has all of the Service Skills at level 0 or higher this provides no benefit.

C) Because the Military Academy already provided the Marine Basic Training he receives a skill roll on any of the Marine skill tables he qualifies for during his first term instead of Basic Training, even though this is his first term in his first career.

Which is the correct RAW?

 

[Saladman]

A Traveller attends the pre-career option of Military Academy (Marines) and receives the Marine Service Skills: Athletics-0, Vacc Suit-0, Tractis-0, Heavy Weapons-0, Gun Combat-0, and Stealth-0 "as with basic training". He graduates (increasing three of these skills to Level-1 ...

Despite being listed under Graduation Benefits, he increases the three skills to 1 "If entering the same military career the academy is tied to," not immediately on graduation without regard to what comes next. Six of one, half a dozen of the other if you go into that career, but the exact wording is important if you do something else, and it might be what's confusing about basic training later.

Which is the correct RAW?

A; basic training occurs but does nothing, and is not replaced with some random other thing either.

But in effect, he's raising three picked service skills from 0 to 1 in exchange for picking the one career that will "miss out" on basic training. Which is still a pretty good deal. In fact still a better deal than one skill roll, so there's no game balance reason to throw in another skill roll on top when the text is already pretty clear.

 

[ottarrus]

It's a little ambiguous, actually. Does a pre-career option like Military Academy count as your initial career or not?

If your Ref rules that the military academy "Basic Training" does not count as your first career's Basic Training then by RAW when you start your first full term in the same military branch you picked at the academy you would have to have Basic Training instead of a skill roll.

Which of course would be worthless since you already have all of those skills at Level-0 and Basic Training doesn't improve any skill that you already have at level-0.

Yes, Academy training counts as 'basic training' insofar a further careers are concerned. Anything after that gets lvl 0 in one skill not already possessed by the character.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yes, Academy training counts as 'basic training' insofar a further careers are concerned. Anything after that gets lvl 0 in once skill not already possessed by the character.

I don't think that's true at all. I don't see anywhere that it says that either. It says "gain all the Service Skills of the military career the academy is tied to at level 0, as with basic training". Meaning you get them at level zero like basic training. Not that it counts as your first career basic training. And under basic training it says that citizens and drifters are an exception, but says nothing about Military Academy graduates being an exception.

University gives a package of skills and doesn't count as Basic Training in your first career. Same for the Military Academy.

 

[Bense]

As I said, it's a bit ambiguous.

Despite being listed under Graduation Benefits, he increases the three skills to 1 "If entering the same military career the academy is tied to," not immediately on graduation without regard to what comes next. Six of one, half a dozen of the other if you go into that career, but the exact wording is important if you do something else, and it might be what's confusing about basic training later.

Yes, but in the example he is in fact entering the Marines as his first career after the Marine Military Academy.

A; basic training occurs but does nothing, and is not replaced with some random other thing either.

But in effect, he's raising three picked service skills from 0 to 1 in exchange for picking the one career that will "miss out" on basic training. Which is still a pretty good deal. In fact still a better deal than one skill roll, so there's no game balance reason to throw in another skill roll on top when the text is already pretty clear.

Why A instead of B?
Either way he doesn't get a skill roll for his first term in the Marines, doesn't improve any skills with Basic Training, and has already had full Basic Training in one career and so would receive the abbreviated "one skill at Level-0" in any future career. The rules effect would seem to be the same under either A or B.

What if he chooses the Army Military Academy and goes into the Army? The Army Services skill table has "Drive or Vacc Suit" as its first entry. Can the Traveller choose "Drive" for his Military Academy Basic Training and then "Vacc Suit" for his first term Basic Training and get both at Level-0? Note that this works under either reading A or B.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yes, if you have a choice of skills like that, then you can take the other choice during basic if you got the first one in the Academy.

 

[ottarrus]

I don't think that's true at all. I don't see anywhere that it says that either. It says "gain all the Service Skills of the military career the academy is tied to at level 0, as with basic training". Meaning you get them at level zero like basic training. Not that it counts as your first career basic training. And under basic training it says that citizens and drifters are an exception, but says nothing about Military Academy graduates being an exception.

University gives a package of skills and doesn't count as Basic Training in your first career. Same for the Military Academy.

Core Rules 2022 update, pg 16

"Military Academy
...
Skills: Gain all Service Skills of the military career the academy is tied to at level 0, as with basic training." [my emphasis]

 

[Vormaerin]

Yes, that's the quote I listed. AS WITH Basic training, not "counting as" basic training. Meaning you get all the skills at 0, the same as you do with basic training. That is not the same as "this counts as your first career's basic training". It is a different thing with a comparable effect. Military Academy is not basic training. It is not your first career. It is a pre-career education that happens to grant the same skills as you'd get in basic.

If you graduate from the military academy and go into the same service, then you do basic but you already have all the skills at 0 (with rare exceptions where there are skill choices) so that's a wash, but you get to boost three of them to 1. This is comparable to University, where you get 3 ranks of skills and then do basic. The difference being that University is easier, but the pre-career commission has to be rolled instead of automatic.

 

[Geir]

The academy is a really good deal, especially if you graduate and get a commission..
The commission, is 'before' your term, so you start at Rank 1 (Army and Marine Lieutenants will automatically get Leadership 1; Navy Ensigns learn how to stick somebody with a knife) and are eligible for promotion that term, so can end at Rank 2 after that single term of service (and then the Navy Sublieutenant would get Leadership 1 with the promotion). So it's a fair trade not to get the 'Roll for one skill at the beginning of the first term in a career' - and no amount of skill zero off the Service table makes any difference, since you already get those. And if that Navy knife-fighter becomes a Sublieutenant, that's one more skill roll, plus potentially something from an event. Not bad.

(Plus a connection potential (or two - since there's that Academy term), one or two choices off a skills package and you have a fairly usefully 26-year-old who gets 2 benefit rolls (one for term, one for rank).

 

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, it is almost always worth it to go to university or the academy if you have the option. University is Skill 1, Skill 2, bonus to get into various careers, a roll for a commission before starting a military career and the bonus to EDU, one of the better stats. Military Academy is pretty good also as mentioned. Automatic enrollment and commission in that one specific career.

 

[agentwigggles]

My favorite but very dumb and no table should allow RAW, is the 'eternal cadet'.
Terms 1-3, you attend all 3 Military Academies. This gets you a lot of skills. Then pick an unrelated Career in the 4th Term for its Basic Training.
The three academies give you 11 skills, and then like pick Entertainer and you get 5 more skills. For a total of 16.
Thats a lot of nonsense. However, rules legal.

 

[Condottiere]

To be fair, sometimes you can game that system in real life.

And sometimes, you look out at the labour swimming pool, and you head back to the wading pond.

 

[Bense]

All right, I've been convinced that, RAW, the training you get in the Military Academy has the same effect as Basic Training but doesn't count as Basic Training.

Now the tougher question: When you enter the Psion career (either by rolling an event or using the Psionic Community background in the Companion), does Basic Training automatically provide you the psionic talents of your chosen assignment, or does it merely provide you additional attempts to learn the talents (with an ever-growing penalty for additional attempts)?

As I read it it's the second option - you gain additional attempts to learn the talent and gain Level-0 skill but still have to roll a successful attempt to learn the skill.

 

[Hardwire]

It is the second option.

 

[Fresnel]

Now the tougher question: When you enter the Psion career (either by rolling an event or using the Psionic Community background in the Companion), does Basic Training automatically provide you the psionic talents of your chosen assignment, or does it merely provide you additional attempts to learn the talents (with an ever-growing penalty for additional attempts)?

This was the original topic... See the discussion on page 1.

As I read it it's the second option - you gain additional attempts to learn the talent and gain Level-0 skill but still have to roll a successful attempt to learn the skill.

For clarity, what text are you basing this 'reading' on?

 

[Bense]

For clarity, what text are you basing this 'reading' on?

The idea that the system for learning psionic talents is clearly set up to make it difficult to generate Travellers with all or most of the psionic talents. Allowing Basic Training in the Psion career to provide three psionic talents without requiring learning rolls pretty effectively bypasses the talent learning system.

Side note: does taking Telepathy as your first talent during PSI testing and therefore automatically getting it without a roll on the table still apply the -1 DM "Per previous talent acquisition check" to your next attempt to learn a talent? As far as I can see the answer is yes, because if it didn't it would makes little sense for any Traveller to not take Telepathy as their first choice (automatic talent with no negative effects on your chances of learning additional talents).

Side Note #2: Do you have to test for all of the talents at PSI testing? This also seems a little ambiguous. The rules says "may attempt to learn any of the common psionic talents...They may attempt the talents in any order." In the given example Luka only tests for Telekinesis and Telepathy. She never makes an attempt at Awareness, Clairvoyance, or Teleportation. Was that because the example isn't intended as a full example or because Luka didn't want or think she could get the other talents and so didn't bother?

If Basic Training provided psi talents to Psions without a roll, then the obvious way to game the system would be:

• At PSI testing, test only for Telekinesis (at +2) and Clairvoyance (also at +2, with the -1 DM for one previous talent acquisition check)
• Take Psi-Warrior as your first assignment to get Telepathy, Awareness, and Teleportation during Basic Training without any rolls.
• If you failed one of the checks for Telekinesis or Clairvoyance during PSI determiniation you can make another attempt at +1 when you roll one of them on the Service Skills table (odds are 2 out of 6 that you'll get the talent you need to learn or the "Any Talent" entry).
• Or, since, "The assignments for Psions are considered to be separate careers", you could change to Adept for term two and Wild Talent for term three and get Clairvoyance and Telekinesis as Basic Training for each of those careers without any talent learning rolls. Though you would have to make a qualification roll each term, those are considerably easier than talent learning rolls, especially on later attempts.

It also doesn't make sense to me to allow Psionic Institutes to be able to provide training to Psions that automatically allows them to learn specific talents but not be able to provide this same training to anyone who encounters a Psionic Institute after character generation during regular play.

 

[Bense]

I note that neither the Zhodani nor the Droyne, both psionic races, have any careers that would provide psionic skills through Basic Training.

The Zhodani have the same "if they roll a psionic skill they were not trained in or failed to gain during their initial psionic training, they may attempt again to gain that talent (all previous DMs apply, including the cumulative DM-1 per previous check)" rule.