BF Evo, future weapons

[Hiromoon]

Mr. Evil, I'm starting to down your own claims of life experience...

Think Riots. I know England and a good number of countries of Europe have them, especially over the game called Football.

And it's constitutionally allowable to do peaceful protest, to gather with signs and make your point of view heard. Flipping cars, setting things on fire, and otherwise causing a bit of a mess (brawls, assaulting people not participating, assaulting people who are participating, etc) isn't allowed under the consititution.

According to the fact-sheet provided by the USAF:
In 2001, ADS System 0 successfully demonstrated that
the technology could achieve desired effects at distances
beyond smallarms range.

Along with that:

How Does It Work? Active Denial Technology produces millimeter waves at a frequency of 95 gigahertz and uses an antenna to direct a focused, invisible beam toward a designated subject.
Traveling at the speed of light, the energy strikes the subject and reaches a skin depth of about 1/64 of an inch, or the equivalent of three sheets of paper. It produces a heat sensation that within seconds becomes intolerable and forces the targeted individual to instinctively flee. The sensation immediately ceases when the individual moves out of the beam or when the operator turns off the system. There is minimal risk of injury from the beam because of the shallow penetration depth of energy at
this short wavelength, the safety features designed into the system, and normal human instinctive reactions. These features include a bore sighted sensor suite that allows the operator to see the entire beam path and target area, and requires no adjustments for ballistics or windage. In addition, ADS incorporates (hardware and software) computer systems that limit shot duration and beam power to achieve a safe and effective, nonlethal, repel effect.

As for the rest of your statment, Evil, Ammo is pretty much ammo....your belief in the durability of the 7.62mm used by the AK being immune to heating effects is...well, amusing. I have not seen anything to really suggest that the AK's ammo of 7.62mm x 39mm is any more heat resistant than the 5.56mm x 45mm NATO round the M16 family of rifles use.

Anyway, the system seems to be ment for fixed installations and mobile platforms. Your "concern" that the system would be used to cause injuries should be alleviated by the fact that, if you look above in bold and underlined, there will be a system that will prevent those industries. As for people doubling over in pain and being trapped there, wouldn't you think that in the 1000 or so tests there'd be some mention about test subjects flopping over and curling into a ball? Certainly Wired Magazine would have mentioned something to that effect, right?

Mines in general haven't been really, really banned. They're a viable tool of war, but their over use by contries who've had piss-poor track records of cleaning up after themselves has gotten alot of oomph behind a push to make their manufacture and sale, along with use, banned. The US has not signed any treaties banning land minds currently.

Also, most of the time Mines ARE a defensive weapon....

 

[Mr Evil]

but you have to admit this weapon could be used to torture ? and that is where things will get sticky.

i wasnt talking about the AK 47 under the heat of the weapon, i was talking about the chemical charge. the russians had a similiar system in the cold war for defence, that was on the same principle but they found if used on powder/chemical charge weapons it could set of the charges, or evan set of some land mines !! this is of course if this weapon your talking about uses microwave technology.

riots are a freedom of speach, would america complained if the iraqie people rioted against their leader ? no america would be saying they were exspressing freedom. some times riots are the only way to get a goverments attention !

as for football riots, lol thats like 20 people running around causing damage, then falling over all worn out, and if there lucky they get to be hit by a bit of good old fashion police brutality (we realy need more of this to put them of doing it again) its reported as a riot but its infact a civil disturbance, although not very civil lol)

the question is how would you represent this weapon in a game ? it has the range of a small arm over a large area so is non specific on hitting friend foe or inocent (bit of a techno land mine if you will) and designed to cause pain and confusion (torture) and could be used to stop people entering areas through fear (terrorism) and is designed to opress any act of freedom of speach or movement against a goverment it doesnt agree with (civil liberty abuse)

i was having a conversation about this the other day, if you were to design a force of evil, i think the american force would be the basis, it was pointed out how often the word devil is used in soem american units ie the red devils, or they depict pictures of deamons or paint teath on their aircraft !!!! i do wonder sometimes if they had a point !

 

[Silvereye]

I guess you miss the whole 3 and 1/2 minutes before burns results bit, Silvereye.

No, but I thought up a worst case scenario when a target subject to a cooking ray was unable to leave the area, or the machine malfunctioned and increased its output.

Also, what on earth is a person on crutches doing in a crowd that would require the use of one of these weapons?

Who knows perhaps it was his/her neices funeral that got out of hand, but it is possible. Also if you look at the Hillsborough football stadium disaster - basically 96 people died very quickly as a result of being crushed in a crowd. The people at the front of the crowd had no-where to go, there were just too many people pushing behind them so those at the front had nowhere to escape to.

Whilst it might be tested on small groups of individuals successfully, there is not be a direct progression from a group of 5 individuals who could easily disperse to a group of 500 or more that cannot disperse.

Past that, an operator can be trained to used the tech effectively with limited injury, that's what testing is for.

And sometimes said trained operator shouldn't be put in charge of such equipment. While the technology may be 'sound' adding a human operator can add a random element.

After they figure out the best time for use of the weapon on a crowd to encourage 'removal of one's self from the area', they can then tweak it. If you have metal in your body, wouldn't you be inclined to leave even faster?

Just think of all the items of metal that are in close proximity to your skin - loose change in a pocket, spectacles, braclet, watch, piercings, rivets in jeans, eyelets on shoes, necklace.... Metal heats up a lot quicker than dead skin when microwaved.

Perhaps it is just the idea of 'non-lethal' or 'less-than-lethal' weapons that operates by really slowly cooking you that seems a bit scary. Just remember to season to taste with pepper spray before hand....

Anyway, we have rushed off at a tanget here.

 

[Hiromoon]

Silvereye ->

Yes, yes we certainly have gotten off on a tangent. It is scarey, but again, you have to look at it logically. A -> The biggest thing about this is it's not supposed to kill. There's a possibility, but that possibility exists with some of the chemical agents countries have used as a method of crowd control before (and counter terrorism... I'm looking at you, Moscow Opera House), and some supposedly non-lethal stuff (baton rounds, Pepper Spray Paintballs)... B -> The big scenario they're going with is a crowd on the verge of getting rowdy, you know, a group protesting outside a military facility of a foriegn country inside their country sort of deal. If it gets to the point of actually being a threat to soldiers acting like a shield, they can use this to dissuade the crowd from getting any further ideas. If it beats shooting them, it works out pretty good, doesn't it?


Mr Evil ->
Yes, but so could tazers, knives, guns, pepper-spray, water, steak-sauce, and a good amount of other things. It's just a tool and isn't ment for that purpose. Remember Doctor Gatlin? His weapon was supposed to dissuade countries from going to war. Good to see that worked out (which, incidently, caused the opposite...they were like "How ingenious! We can do this cheaper now!").

The weapon we're talking about does use microwaves, but only of a set frequency. It doesn't seem to be designed to do more than give you the sensation of touching a lightbulb, just all over your body.

I've seen the whole 'riots are a freedom of speech' arguement before, Mr. Evil, and it's still utter bollocks. Next you'll be saying that the Muslims who rioted after the Danish Cartoons with representations of Muhammad were expressing their freedom of speech when they torched American based buisness franchises. The United States didn't show the cartoons, in fact we went out of our way to try to stay out of the way.

And only 20 people? Try 400 people in Trafalga Square in 1996, or 80 people (English in fact) ransacking a resturant in November of this year over in Cologne....Even my Alma Malter had a pretty impressive riot that, for a college town, filled up approximately four blocks worth of space and resulted in the State Troopers being called in to support the local police department after an American Football game resulted in a loss of the school. Try googling football riots sometime, Mr. Evil.


To represent the weapon in the game would probably be a template weapon, and if it scored a hit the model MUST make an immediate move action away from the source of beam. As for the rest of your description, that's your opinion and I won't bother trying to argue with you on that. Just keep in mind I'll just shake my head at you.

Actually an evil force would be more based off a certain army that used political officers to ensure the troops stayed on the field. Who also had units who's sole purpose was to find deserters and make examples of them.

American Units get names usually through their deeds, like the US Marine Corps was named Teufelhunde (Devil Dogs) by the Germans in World War 1 after they took Belleau Wood from the Germans in June, 1918. The Red Devils (504th PIR, 82nd Airborne) get their name from a demoralized German Officer in WW2 who described them as "Devils in Baggy Pants". Mottos are typically adopted the same way (The Rangers' "Rangers Lead the Way" was adopted after the Normandy Landings). A Canadian and American joint unit earned the nickname "Devil's Brigade" at Anzio from the Germans. As for Nose art on planes, that's the pilot's own buisness.

 

[Mr Evil]

would be instant death to some one with a pacemaker !!! not good if that was the hostage !!

 

[Hiromoon]

Why would they be using this for hostage situations? It's a crowd control device, and I don't think they even use CS gas for hostage situations either.

 

[Hiromoon]

V-22 Escort Concept:

They've recently went with a tilt-rotor UCAV design for some odd reason...


Something similar to the V-22, a Quad-Tilt Rotor:

A heavy lifter concept:

And something a little more recent, an MH-47E

 

[Mr Evil]

the muslim example you gave is called fanatasism, and it has no common sence backing it, to such an extent americans often find the concept hard to understand. also thinking about it, isnt football riots just fanatasism going bit over the edge ? riots are often a last line of protest, trying to let agression out for a beleif of sorts, probably due to a failure to maslows pyramid along the line some where.

any dispersal weapon has to be shown to be unusable on a civilian population, and to be non leathal to a civilian population, thats why water cannons arnt used any more ? all this is your sugesting is a very hot water cannon, or maybe a cold water cannon ? america has been recorded to have broken several warcrimes in the second gulf war, as has the british army (not to such a larg extent)

as a side note it would be intereting to have a box set of rioters and then have some riot control rules for the game, could be fun !

also dont google every thing, i found a site on google of a friend of mine who acording to that won a bi-election for the conservatives !!!! in an area hes never lived !!!! as for the american microwave weapon its just old 1980's soviet technology revamped.

what im more interestin in with BF evo is the troops, ie the men on the ground with a few support vehicles, maybe more recon than full war, im sorta wondering do we need to include air power support for such small scale engagments ? i think the technology they carry and how it effects the battle field would be interesting to get into, also be nice to see lots of remote robotic soildiers weve seen in video's that the us are testing, im sure if a conflict came up production and advancment of these would speed up. gulf war 2 has definatly uped the speed and rate of military technology in some areas, especialy within the PLA as they have seen what the rest of the world has in action and its effects and failings.

also noticed in the game the humve seems to be totaly replaced by the americans ! wonder what the brits will be using !!!

 

[Hiromoon]

Most riots can be called fanatasism, Mr. Evil. They're not a form of protest.

Actually it was because of firehoses being used on peaceful civil rights protestors is why we (the US) don't use water cannons. Most European and Asian riot vehicles carry water cannons for dual purpose use... A> To bathe the rioters and b> to put out any fires the morons set.

And would you care to give me a list of the warcrimes? I remember charges of WP use...

Your side note: They have plans for a MEA Mob set

Uh-huh. Hopefully your friend is serving that area well :roll:.
And do you have any proof beyond just stating that they had this?

Yep, they're needed even for the small skirmishes we're playing out. It wouldn't be much of an modern/ultramodern game without them. The robots are supposed to be support assets for soldiers in the field, though Mongoose seems to have become enchanted with the idea of the Sword Talon Robot...
And the PLA is primarially a green army, highly motivated, possibly well trained and equipped, but with little to no actual war experience at the moment. They're still playing catch-up with the rest of the world effectively.

The USMC wanted an air transportable vehicle capable of fitting on a V-22 Osprey. A HMMWV doesn't unless you hang it from the bottom.

 

[britneyfan97]

most modern pacemakers are shielded, and self-defibrilating.

in a civil disturbance setting (riot), i think this thing would be perfect.
however the operator would have to be all sorts of qualified/certified/competent, and take into consideration that employing it from an elevated position might be best, then give a few zaps starting from the rear - to create a better escape route for those in the front.

i've been involved with maintaining order in several riotous situatuations in iraq, and while by no means an expert, i will say its nice to have the right tools for the job when you need them.


somebody else asked, why would someone on crutches be out there?
the CNN (blaah) footage of the rioting in paris a few months back happened to include a gentleman with one crutch tauning the police in front of the crowd, and being hit with water for his efforts. he made a joke out of it, and got hit a few more times...

i would be interested to see how this effects one of those folks that thought putting shiny eye implants http://www.bmezine.com/news/pubring/20040601.html in was a good idea.

 

[Hiromoon]

i would be interested to see how this effects one of those folks that thought putting shiny eye implants http://www.bmezine.com/news/pubring/20040601.html in was a good idea.

Someone setting a land speed record?

 

[Darkghost]

Mr. Evil, I find myself disagreeing with you alot. I'm not motivated to go back and specify and make rebuttles, but I'm sure I will on future posts.

I'm suprised about the immense support for the V-22 on these forums. I've never liked the thing at all... maybe its because I have an air force dad that knows all the problems with the machine. Wonderful concept, but tilting rotors are very difficult to make to work effectively, and have many, many mechanical problems. Of course it is the nature of the US Government to say that development of tilt-rotor aircraft is going fine, even if it isn't.

 

[Hiromoon]

I keep worrying the one they've been flying over my work place will fall out of the sky at the drop of a hat.

 

[Helstrom]

Why would they be using this for hostage situations? It's a crowd control device, and I don't think they even use CS gas for hostage situations either.

CS gas is a pretty popular tool for use in hostage situations, provided the hostage takers don't have gas masks or other preparations, or are drugged to the point of immunity. The reason being that CS drops everyone in a non-lethal (or at least decidedly less-than-lethal) manner; even hostages can compromise an entry team when they begin jumping up and running around in a panic. But when you've taken a solid dose of CS, all you want to do is roll up into a little ball and die (which, if the situation is resolved quickly, you won't).

That said, I'm not sure if this wave weapon would be useful in a hostage situation, as it doesn't seem to incapacitate as much as it "chases off". Obviously, there's normally not a lot of room to run to in a hostage situation, prolonged exposure seems to be quite hazardous, and I'm not sure if the weapon could be used surgically enough to avoid hitting the entry team, which should be hot on the heels of such a burst to prevent the hostiles from getting their wits back together before they've been secured.

On the other hand, I suppose the weapon could be used in bursts against barricaded suspects in law enforcement. When there's no hostages or bystanders at risk, you could zap the bugger until he gives up!

 

[Hiromoon]

It might work in prison riot situations where the police have found other pain based weapons to be pretty effective... One weapon in particular is the stun ball bomb. It packs rubber balls in a grenade, which shower the room in a claymore effect...

And after the Moscow Opera House fiasco, I thought that counter-terrorists and SWAT would shy away from using gasses that incapacitate...

 

[britneyfan97]

abolutely right.... if the mixture is off, or if air pressure is wonky, or the bad guys left a fan on - you cant place a whole lot of faith in gasses.

i've had about as much CS as i could ever want, and (once i was out of the chamber) then i did curl up. some prick NCO didnt like that and i ended up telling him i could not follow his orders; as my inability to see prevented me from safely negotiating my way to where he wanted me, and i could not verify he was even an NCO.

we were never friends.

i still think OC is more effective though.

as for prisons, pepperball http://www.pepperball.com is rather popular at the county lockup here.

 

[Darkghost]

Pepperball technology makes me laugh. They're just paintball guns with different ammo. Hell, even the "Pepperball Carbine" is a Tippmann A-5, with the CO2 tank going forward. If I wanted to control a crowd with Pepperballs, I would get a Bob Long Intimidator, and rail off 15-20 balls per second.

 

[Hiromoon]

Try the Sting bombs...

effectively paintballs made of rubber... I'll get some stuff posted on future non-lethal weapons.

 

[Hiromoon]

Non-Lethal Weapons by the US Military:

We've already had the Active Denial Technology show-case, much to Mr. Evil's delight...

Accoustic Weapons:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/accoustic.htm

A system from EROD, with the equivalent of 36 horns going off at once.

E-Bomb (High-Power Microwave [HPM])
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/hpm.htm

Say goodbye to your WOW accounts!

M5 Modular Crowd Control Munition
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m5.htm

That's right, that's a claymore filled with .32 caliber PVC balls.

M84 Stun Grenade
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/xm84.htm

It's a uber flash-bang. Warning: Do no use near flammable gases or gasoline.

M1012 12-Gauge Cartridge
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m1012.htm

Nothing says 'Sit Down' like a baton round... well, maybe a tazer...

M1006 Sponge Round (Point)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/40-nl.htm

I didn't know NERF could be used for crowd control...

M1029 40-Millimeter Crowd Dispersal Round (Area)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m1029.htm

It's like the M5 Modular Crowd Control Munition. It operates on the common concept that when people think for themselves, they're pretty intelligent. The trick is to use pain to snap them out of the mob mentality.

Mobility Denial System
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/mds.htm

A non-hazardous chemical spray system that spreads a slippery gel onto its intended surface in order to inhibit the movement of individuals or vehicles so military personnel can control crowds and isolate facilities located in restricted areas. The man-portable MDS weighs about 55 lbs when loaded and covers up to 2,000 square feet, enabling targeted applications both in and around buildings.

Pulsed Energy Projectile (PEP)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/pep.htm

And peope had problems with microwave based crowd control? This sucker uses plasma!

The Pulsed Energy Projectile fires a short intense pulse of laser energy. This vaporizes the outer layer of the target, creating a rapidly-expanding expanding ball of plasma. At different power levels, those expanding plasmas could deliver a harmless warning, stun the target, or disable them - all with pinpoint laser precision from a mile away.

Early reports on the effects of PEPs mentioned temporary paralysis, then thought to be related to ultrasonic shockwaves. It later became apparent that the electromagnetic pulse caused by the expanding plasma was triggering nerve cells.

Details of this emerged in a heavily-censored document released to Ed Hammond of the Sunshine Project under the Freedom if Information Act. Called “Sensory consequence of electromagnetic pulsed emitted by laser induced plasmas,” it described research on activating the nerve cells responsible for sensing unpleasant stimuli: heat, damage, pressure, cold. By selectively stimulating a particular nociceptor, a finely tuned PEP might sensations of say, being burned, frozen or dipped in acid -- all without doing the slightest actual harm.

The skin is the easiest target for such stimulation. But, in principle, any sensory nerves could be triggered. The Controlled Effects document suggests “it may be possible to create synthetic images…to confuse an individual' s visual sense or, in a similar manner, confuse his senses of sound, taste, touch, or smell.”

In other words, it may be possible to use electromagnetic means to create overwhelming 'sound' or 'light', or indeed 'intolerable smell' which would exist only in the brain of the person perceiving them.

There is another side as well. The “sensory consequences” document also notes that the nervous system which controls muscles could be influenced to cause what they call “Taser-like motor effects.” The stun gun’s ability to shock the muscles into malfunction is relatively crude; we might now be looking at are much more targeted effects.

M98, Grenade, Launcher: 66mm Non-lethal, Distraction

An area target munition that can be fired 80 to 100 meters from a standard LVOSS launcher on selected Armament Carrier HMMWVs as well as from any 66mm smoke launching system found on most armored vehicles. Once fired, it delivers a flash/bang diversionary or warning effect.

M99, Grenade, Launcher: 66mm Non-lethal, Blunt Trauma

An area target munition that can be fired 80 to 100 meters from any standard LVOSS launcher on selected Armament Carrier HMMWVs as well as from any 66mm smoke launching system found on most armored vehicles. Once fired, its burst delivers a payload of rubber, non-penetrating projectiles. It is best used to provide supporting non-lethal fires to crowd control formations.

Personnel Halting and Stimulation Response (PHaSR)

The Personnel Halting and Stimulation Response (PHaSR) is a rifle-sized laser weapon system that uses two non-lethal laser wavelengths to deter, prevent, or mitigate an adversary’s effectiveness. The laser light generated by this weapon illuminates or “dazzles” aggressors, temporarily impairing individuals and their ability to see the laser source.

Watch this thread for updates as they come...

Trust me, I'm finding stuff even as I post this message...

 

[Bewildered Badger]

So let's see if I've got this right. The 'Pulsed Energy Projectile (PEP)' fires a laser at the target. This laser 'vaporizes the outer layer of the target, creating a rapidly-expanding expanding ball of plasma', said plasma being able to disorientate or stun people via electromagnetic means.
I had two thoughts reading this. The first was 'Holy Sh*T!'. The second was 'They've invented the Phaser'.

And don't the developers have a wonderful way with euphamisms? This is part of something called the 'Sunshine Project'. Still I suppose it sounds better than the 'knock-someone-out by-burning-off-the-top-layer-of-the epidermis-ray-Project.'

Fascinating stuff Hiromoon.