Automated Ships

[DivineWrath]

I'm near the limit that I set out for myself from the get go. Make a 5000 vessel that has most of its cargo in external cargo mounts. And automated. I was able to shrink it to 2500 tons of internal space and 2500 of external. I was able to leave myself some room to fit other stuff inside. Like accommodations for a few crew members to oversee the automated systems. Or pilot the shuttles. The thing is about as cramped as your typical Jump-6 vessel. Though if I really wanted to, I could trade some external tonnage or increase it to fit more shuttles.

 

[Condottiere]

Breakaway hull.

The engines in the streamlined front, fuel and external cargo in the back.

The front part does deliveries.

 

[steve98052]

The easy solution is to carry more shuttles. If you carry them in grappling hooks on the outside, they cost very little space, just slightly bigger drives & fuel.

The standard solution for high volume routes is "LASH" -- Lighter Aboard SHip -- analogous to real world Roll-on Roll-off freighter ships, which carry loaded semi-trailers rather than containers. Instead of having a crane lift a container from a ship onto a container-ready flatbed truck, a Ro-Ro has truck cabs back aboard, hook up trailers, and drive away.

At a LASH port, as soon as a ship jumps into the system, the port launches pre-loaded lighters toward the jump carrier and the jump carrier launches its lighters toward the port. (Presumably some of the lighters would actually be fuel tankers built as detachable fuel tanks.) The incoming and outbound lighters are exchanged in a single operation, and the truly expensive part of the shipping fleet -- the jump carrier -- is back into jump space with time in normal space minimized. While waiting for the incoming lighters, the crew does its routine maintenance.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Or pilot the shuttles.

If the ship is automated, why not the shuttles?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The standard solution for high volume routes is "LASH"

Or the Far Port located near or outside the 100d limit.

 

[steve98052]

The standard solution for high volume routes is "LASH"

Or the Far Port located near or outside the 100d limit.

To offer much advantage, there would have to be several such far ports, because ships coming out of jump don't necessarily come out on the same side of a world as the far port might be.

Another possible way to speed cargo transfer would be mobile docking bays, built to fit the jump ship's cargo section like a drydock, with high acceleration drives. When the jump ship arrives in system, the docking ship flies out to meet it, docks, and the cargo handlers can work in air, rather than vacuum, to swap the incoming cargo for the outgoing.

One problem with that is that the actual transfer takes longer. Another is that the mobile docking bay is quite a bit more difficult to move to a new system than LASH shuttles, because it's big.

I'd have to run test numbers for different sets of designs to figure out which is most efficient. My guess is that it depends on which rule set is used; jump drives are always expensive, but the magnitude of the difference between them and maneuver drives varies.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

To offer much advantage, there would have to be several such far ports, because ships coming out of jump don't necessarily come out on the same side of a world as the far port might be.

Worst case, with a single Far Port, ship's would not lose any time compared to a close orbit High Port. Most ships would save time.

2 Far Ports, e.g. in the Lagrange L₁ and L₂ points, would save significant time for most ships.

For most world the saved time would only be a few hours, so perhaps not enough to bother with a Far Port.

 

[steve98052]

Returning to the original subject, automated ships -- though not the original topic, automated fighting ships -- one obvious type of automated ship would be fuel skimmers and fuel tankers. They would probably work best in teams:

- A small fleet, maybe just one (or two, so operations don't stop during annual maintenance), of skimmers, with fairly powerful maneuver drives to reduce their dependence on aerodynamic lift in the strong gravity and extreme winds of a gas giant. They might be entirely standard designs, or might have a few different models optimized for different gas giant gravity profiles.

- A much larger fleet of transport tankers, with very low powered maneuver drives for the long flight from the gas giant to the high port. They could be unstreamlined, since they only rendezvous with the skimmers and the high ports in space. They could carry very small fuel processors because they have the entire trip from the gas giant to the high port to do the job. Within a standard design, individual systems would have lightly customized versions with drives chosen to minimize the capital cost of the equipment and maximize the amount of fuel delivered per year.

Since the skimming is the more difficult task, the skimmers would have more powerful automation, so they would likely command the rendezvous. At the high port, humans would command the rendezvous. Transfer tankers would thus be pretty dumb ships.

 

[AndrewW]

Returning to the original subject, automated ships -- though not the original topic, automated fighting ships -- one obvious type of automated ship would be fuel skimmers and fuel tankers. They would probably work best in teams:

The scoop drones that are mentioned under the Fuel Refinery (see High Guard 2.0 Space Stations) are automated at TL12+.

 

[DivineWrath]

Sorry. I got a little distracted with designing ships with external cargo mounts. I'll pack my ideas up and get back on topic.

The software I used with automated ships are the following:
Intellect 1
Expert 2 (Pilot)
Expert 2 (Astrogation)
Expert 2 (Engineering J-Drive)
Expert 2 (Engineering M-Drive)
Expert 2 (Engineering Power)

Intellect allows for autonomous action. Pilot provided the skills needed to fly the ship. Astrogation and Engineering J-Drive allows for a ship to Jump. Engineering M-Drive and P-Plant allows for control over critical ship systems. I should probably add Engineering Life Support to the list to cover all actions. Maybe I should add Mechanic for ships that have Repair Drones. I'll consider other software.

Intellect and Expert software are quite cheap when compared to typical ship software. I see no reason to not load up on all useful software. It almost makes me worry that this has been too easy. Mind you I've been sticking to TL 12 stuff, so it has not been very expensive.

The external cargo ship that I was working on had a computer with a rating of 20, 15 of which was for the jump software with the other 5 was for automation. I had no bandwidth problems any time other than jumping.

By the way, no price has been given to Intellect 3. Any reason why?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The software I used with automated ships are the following:

I think you need more skills, but they are dirt cheap, so it does not matter much. E.g. Admin, Advocate, Broker, Diplomat, Electronics(all specs), Investigate, Languages, Navigation, Profession(Hydroponics), and perhaps Tactics...

The external cargo ship that I was working on had a computer with a rating of 20, 15 of which was for the jump software with the other 5 was for automation. I had no bandwidth problems any time other than jumping.

You have no control&command software. I would not allow that.

Intellect allows the use of expert systems to perform tasks, it does not allow completely independent action. I would call it roughly equivalent with robotic Basic programming. E.g. an autopilot can drive you from point A to point B, but it cannot decide to go to point B, someone has to tell it that we need to go to point B. In the same manner an autodoc can treat a patient, but it cannot run a hospital. Robots that are truly independent and flexible needs Very Advanced programming, TL ~14, and cost several MCr.

Technically, it's the Virtual Crew software that allows a craft to operate independently and without a bridge. I would require Virtual Crew to run at all times. When we want to jump I would require the Astrogation & Engineering Expert systems to run concurrently too. And the jump software, of course.

So, for a J-3 I would require Jump Control-3 [15 BW], Virtual Crew-0 [5 BW], Intellect+Expert(Astrogation) [~3 BW], and Intellect+Expert(Engineer) [~3 BW] at the very least, for a total bandwidth requirement of 15 + 5 + 3 + 3 ≈ 26.

But all of this is of course only my interpretation and prejudice.

By the way, no price has been given to Intellect 3. Any reason why?

CSC sets it at kCr 200, so it's probably an oversight.

 

[EldritchFire]

Sorry. I got a little distracted with designing ships with external cargo mounts. I'll pack my ideas up and get back on topic.

The software I used with automated ships are the following:
Intellect 1
Expert 2 (Pilot)
Expert 2 (Astrogation)
Expert 2 (Engineering J-Drive)
Expert 2 (Engineering M-Drive)
Expert 2 (Engineering Power)

Intellect allows for autonomous action. Pilot provided the skills needed to fly the ship. Astrogation and Engineering J-Drive allows for a ship to Jump. Engineering M-Drive and P-Plant allows for control over critical ship systems. I should probably add Engineering Life Support to the list to cover all actions. Maybe I should add Mechanic for ships that have Repair Drones. I'll consider other software.

Intellect and Expert software are quite cheap when compared to typical ship software. I see no reason to not load up on all useful software. It almost makes me worry that this has been too easy. Mind you I've been sticking to TL 12 stuff, so it has not been very expensive.

The external cargo ship that I was working on had a computer with a rating of 20, 15 of which was for the jump software with the other 5 was for automation. I had no bandwidth problems any time other than jumping.

By the way, no price has been given to Intellect 3. Any reason why?

Minor nit-pick: Intellect programs only allow INT and EDU skills. Pilot is a DEX skill.

Wouldn't it just be easier to grab Virtual Crew/2 for MCr2 and 10 bandwidth and call it a day? It covers up to 5 simultaneous tasks at a DM+1, and covers all skills, not just the few you have Expert programs for. Yeah, it costs more initially, but since you're saving costs on crew in the long run, it's a fair trade off, and the ability to use any skill needed at a basic level more than makes up for the price hike when compared to buying individual Expert programs, yes?

 

[DivineWrath]

Thanks for the feedback.

I think you need more skills, but they are dirt cheap, so it does not matter much. E.g. Admin, Advocate, Broker, Diplomat, Electronics(all specs), Investigate, Languages, Navigation, Profession(Hydroponics), and perhaps Tactics...

I started investigating other skills after I made my last post. Mind if I ask why you have Diplomat and Investigate on the list? They don't appear the kind of skills that an automated ship could use well.

Intellect allows the use of expert systems to perform tasks, it does not allow completely independent action. I would call it roughly equivalent with robotic Basic programming. E.g. an autopilot can drive you from point A to point B, but it cannot decide to go to point B, someone has to tell it that we need to go to point B. In the same manner an autodoc can treat a patient, but it cannot run a hospital. Robots that are truly independent and flexible needs Very Advanced programming, TL ~14, and cost several MCr.

Technically, it's the Virtual Crew software that allows a craft to operate independently and without a bridge. I would require Virtual Crew to run at all times. When we want to jump I would require the Astrogation & Engineering Expert systems to run concurrently too. And the jump software, of course.

So, for a J-3 I would require Jump Control-3 [15 BW], Virtual Crew-0 [5 BW], Intellect+Expert(Astrogation) [~3 BW], and Intellect+Expert(Engineer) [~3 BW] at the very least, for a total bandwidth requirement of 15 + 5 + 3 + 3 ≈ 26.

But all of this is of course only my interpretation and prejudice.

Fair enough. Something has to hold everything together. However, I don't think that Astrogation and Engineer needs to be running at the same time. Plot next jump ahead of time and then jump when ready.

By the way, no price has been given to Intellect 3. Any reason why?

CSC sets it at kCr 200, so it's probably an oversight.

Thanks!

Minor nit-pick: Intellect programs only allow INT and EDU skills. Pilot is a DEX skill.

On page 155 in the core rulebook under automated duties, it says "A ship running an Intellect program and Expert Pilot can act as the pilot.". That is why I have it listed.

Wouldn't it just be easier to grab Virtual Crew/2 for MCr2 and 10 bandwidth and call it a day? It covers up to 5 simultaneous tasks at a DM+1, and covers all skills, not just the few you have Expert programs for. Yeah, it costs more initially, but since you're saving costs on crew in the long run, it's a fair trade off, and the ability to use any skill needed at a basic level more than makes up for the price hike when compared to buying individual Expert programs, yes?

I'm under the impression that Virtual crew can't replace all tasks. "Virtual Crew can replace up to five pilots, gunners or sensor operators on board a ship,". So, for example, it can't replace engineering duties. At least, I don't think it can.

Also, I think you got the stats for Virtual Crew wrong. Virtual Crew/2 is MCr 10 BW 15 and gives +2 DM.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I started investigating other skills after I made my last post. Mind if I ask why you have Diplomat and Investigate on the list? They don't appear the kind of skills that an automated ship could use well.

Depends on how automated you want the ship to be.

The Diplomat skill is for negotiating deals, establishing peaceful contact and ...

Seems important for a merchant vessel?

The Investigate skill incorporates keen observation, forensics, and detailed analysis.

We see a sensor anomaly near a moon. What is it? A stealthed pirate? Investigate allows us to try to find out...

Perhaps I was a little over-zealous with the skills...

Fair enough. Something has to hold everything together. However, I don't think that Astrogation and Engineer needs to be running at the same time. Plot next jump ahead of time and then jump when ready.

Then we wouldn't need an Astrogator at all. Just buy jump tapes at the starport. My prejudice says we need them both...

Wouldn't it just be easier to grab Virtual Crew/2 for MCr2 and 10 bandwidth and call it a day? It covers up to 5 simultaneous tasks at a DM+1, and covers all skills, not just the few you have Expert programs for. Yeah, it costs more initially, but since you're saving costs on crew in the long run, it's a fair trade off, and the ability to use any skill needed at a basic level more than makes up for the price hike when compared to buying individual Expert programs, yes?

I'm under the impression that Virtual crew can't replace all tasks. "Virtual Crew can replace up to five pilots, gunners or sensor operators on board a ship,". So, for example, it can't replace engineering duties. At least, I don't think it can.

I agree, only Pilot, Elec(SensorOp), and Gunnery task can be made by Virtual Crew.

 

[Reynard]

" I don't think that Astrogation and Engineer needs to be running at the same time."

An engineer doesn't stop performing any regular or even emergency duties just because the astrogator is at work. Same for the astrogator not performing sensor sweeps and other duties. That's a very lucky astrogator whose only function is plotting jump course. Same goes for virtual astrogators.

By the way, from some earlier posts I hear how automated ships should have an organic crew to keep an eye on the ship's automated systems. Wasn't the point an automated ship eliminates the costly organic element by being more efficient and reliable? Technical issues would be handled at port during regular overhaul and diagnostics. Putting a crew on board defeats the purpose and shows automated ships can't be trusted.

 

[EldritchFire]

…

Minor nit-pick: Intellect programs only allow INT and EDU skills. Pilot is a DEX skill.

On page 155 in the core rulebook under automated duties, it says "A ship running an Intellect program and Expert Pilot can act as the pilot.". That is why I have it listed.

Ah, my bad. I missed that part.

Wouldn't it just be easier to grab Virtual Crew/2 for MCr2 and 10 bandwidth and call it a day? It covers up to 5 simultaneous tasks at a DM+1, and covers all skills, not just the few you have Expert programs for. Yeah, it costs more initially, but since you're saving costs on crew in the long run, it's a fair trade off, and the ability to use any skill needed at a basic level more than makes up for the price hike when compared to buying individual Expert programs, yes?

I'm under the impression that Virtual crew can't replace all tasks. "Virtual Crew can replace up to five pilots, gunners or sensor operators on board a ship,". So, for example, it can't replace engineering duties. At least, I don't think it can.

Also, I think you got the stats for Virtual Crew wrong. Virtual Crew/2 is MCr 10 BW 15 and gives +2 DM.

Doh! That's what I get for not reading the fine print, huh? Also, I was meaning VC/1, not VC/2. Typo on my part.

 

[DivineWrath]

I started investigating other skills after I made my last post. Mind if I ask why you have Diplomat and Investigate on the list? They don't appear the kind of skills that an automated ship could use well.

Depends on how automated you want the ship to be.

I'm not sure how well an automated ship might be able to handle those tasks. I might be borrowing information from another RPG, but some forms of limited AIs can't adapt and learn. If you find an exploit for one, it'll work for all. At least for copies of the same AI. Others might be terrible at improvising. I'm not really sure what AI capabilities your typical AI in this game has.

I might be playing it too safe and conservative. Maybe such software can do those jobs... unless someone on the other end doesn't like AIs.

By the way, from some earlier posts I hear how automated ships should have an organic crew to keep an eye on the ship's automated systems. Wasn't the point an automated ship eliminates the costly organic element by being more efficient and reliable? Technical issues would be handled at port during regular overhaul and diagnostics. Putting a crew on board defeats the purpose and shows automated ships can't be trusted.

I did say that I was designing ships with a small backup crew. But nothing nearly as big as what a ship would normally need. I was using like 2 crew members when you would normally have several dozen. Using the saved space to store more cargo on a ship.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I'm not sure how well an automated ship might be able to handle those tasks. I might be borrowing information from another RPG, but some forms of limited AIs can't adapt and learn. If you find an exploit for one, it'll work for all. At least for copies of the same AI. Others might be terrible at improvising. I'm not really sure what AI capabilities your typical AI in this game has.

I might be playing it too safe and conservative. Maybe such software can do those jobs... unless someone on the other end doesn't like AIs.

I do not use automated ships at all. RPGs are about people...

I think we can take a hint from the robot descriptions in CSC, TL12 AIs are fairly stupid, TL15 AIs are almost human, and at TL16 - 17 AIs gets "more capable than its own creators in every measurable way".

 

[Reynard]

https://www.facebook.com/NowThisFuture/videos/1411706902203819/

Will the Imperium have to give rights to their automated ships and air/rafts?