Automated Ships

[DivineWrath]

I'm trying to figure out the limits on automated ships. Ship run solely by the software they have running. I'm trying to make a ship that can run and possibly make intelligent decisions without anyone on board and in complete radio silence.

I'm trying to make an automated combat monster that is 5000 tons or more. Maybe it malfunctions and goes rouge or something. Maybe the players get the chance to fight it in a combat exercise. Something like that. I'm trying to get an idea of what the rules will currently allow.


Virtual Crew. This allows the ship to cover the jobs of 5 crew for the following roles: Pilots, gunners, and sensor operators. Nothing else? Software rating determines the skill level. The first 5 crew are free? Each additional point of bandwidth adds another 5 virtual crew.

Virtual Gunner. This is more efficient and specialized than virtual crew. It allows for 10 gunners to be replaced by 10 virtual gunners. No freebies? So the first 10 virtual crew has to be covered by 1 additional bandwidth?

Can virtual gunner reload missile, railgun, sandcaster and other ammo? Some of the weapons have really heavy payload so it would be hard to believe that even a moderate sized crew could reload many tons of ammunition in a single turn. I think at some point there would be automated systems or tools that can do the reloading.

Screen Optimizer. This covers all screens. No additional bandwidth required if you have plenty of screens?

Auto-Repair. With repair drones, it allows a ship to repair itself.

Intellect and Expert. Can a ship's computer have multiple intellect programs running? I want this to cover all other jobs that virtual crew might miss. I may have many jobs I want it to replace, more than what would be possible with the limited bandwidth of personal computers would allow.

What kind of skills can it cover? The book says that it can cover pilot (for autopilot) and engineering. What about astrogation? What about mechanic? What about Tactics (naval) so it could get initiative bonuses?


This is all I can think of for the moment. I'll be back later.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You will run into bandwidth problems, unless you allow several computers running in parallel. A single skilled expert system takes 4 BW. I assume that each instance of Intellect software will replace a single sophont.

A tablet computer can easily run an expert system, but even a CORE will struggle with 20 - 30 expert systems, leaving no "bandwidth" for combat software.

The ship will still need actuators for many tasks, e.g. drones or robots.

An automated crew will probably be less skilled than a highly trained sophont crew. Intellect software has no defined characteristics, so no characteristic DM (e.g. INT DM). A sophont can be tricked out with augmented skill, characteristic, and a wafer jack with a supporting expert system. A sophont with skill-2 might roll with a DM of +5 on any tasks. Automated systems would roll with a +2 DM at the most.

Virtual Crew. ...
Virtual Gunner. ...

Both include 5 or 10 crew in the base package, with another 5 or 10 for each extra bandwidth.

Can virtual gunner reload missile, railgun, sandcaster and other ammo?

I would assume auto-loaders, at least on purpose-built warships. Adding a missile turret to a Free Trader would require manually reloading the turret? A few Utility Droids should take care of the problem.

Intellect and Expert. Can a ship's computer have multiple intellect programs running?

Yes, you can run as many instances as your bandwidth allow.

What kind of skills can it cover? The book says that it can cover pilot (for autopilot) and engineering. What about astrogation? What about mechanic? What about Tactics (naval) so it could get initiative bonuses?

Yes, all of them. Mechanic would require "hands", but I guess the repair drones will suffice.

 

[Reynard]

It would be interesting to see what the fully automated Kinunir would look like.

So, going to name the first prototype Fully Automated Warship M5?

 

[Condottiere]

Without the bridge, where does the virtual computer get installed?

 

[EldritchFire]

Without the bridge, where does the virtual computer get installed?

Per HG2e, the computer isn't on the bridge. Well, not just on the bridge:

"Computers do not consume any tonnage on a ship—while they do have a physical presence, they are distributed throughout the ship and considered part of other components such as the bridge, staterooms and drives."

 

[steve98052]

I'm trying to figure out the limits on automated ships. Ship run solely by the software they have running. I'm trying to make a ship that can run and possibly make intelligent decisions without anyone on board and in complete radio silence.

The Imperium has a strong cultural aversion to autonomous combat machines.:
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Shudusham_Concords

I'm trying to make an automated combat monster that is 5000 tons or more. Maybe it malfunctions and goes rouge or something. Maybe the players get the chance to fight it in a combat exercise. Something like that. I'm trying to get an idea of what the rules will currently allow.

The first Traveller adventure, The Kinunir, was about a ship with an internal security system that developed personalitytraits that were not anticipated by the developers.

In other literature, there's HAL. There are the replicants of Blade Runner. There are many other examples.

All of those examples are aboard ship. Rogue sentient computers in charge of starship weapons are even worse. Look at the "Virus" plot line from Traveller The New Era.

For an alternate vision sentient robots, look at Asimov's robots. They could be the inspiration for robots that are so helpful and benevolent that they get in the way of the player characters, and getting around the robot's effort to be helpful becomes an adventure seed.

"I said jump, Frank."
"I'm sorry, captain. The jump drive operating manual says that the drive must be overhauled at least once per year at a qualified shipyard, to avoid the risk of misjump or catastrophic failure. The jump drive is overdue for maintenance and may not be used."
"But it allows for a two week grace period, Frank. Jump."
"The grace period expired four days ago, captain."
"Why didn't you warn us, before we jumped into this backwater?"
"I did. Six weeks ago, I told you that we had five weeks to go before our maintenance deadline, and that we were four weeks away from a suitable shipyard."
"You sure didn't make it clear that we'd be stranded on a backwater world then."
"I can replay the conversation, captain. I believe you will find that I made myself quite clear."
"Don't bother. What are we supposed to do now?"
"That Scout you met in port was quite friendly. I advise that you ask him to deliver a request for dispatch of a mobile drydock."
"A mobile drydock will cost a fortune, even now that they're mostly idle now that the war is over. And who knows how long we'll be stuck here?"
. . .

 

[legozhodani]

I do love that 'stranded' idea. Very amusing and one I can see happening to my lot. :lol:

 

[Condottiere]

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Lacks the Genuine People Personality...

Sirius Cybernetics Corporation can do better:

 

[xnet445]

Don't forget Fred Saberhagen's Berserkers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker_(Saberhagen)

Automated warship/bots gone amok.

 

[DivineWrath]

Well, I'm not all that familiar with Traveller lore. I really like making ships. I was trying to make new kinds of ships (this time, automated ships) and put them into play if possible.

I'm wondering if any faction would use automated ships and if they would be effective? It would influence what kind of factions I might try to make. I was thinking that maybe one corp suddenly became a significant military power because they made automated ships to compensate for a lack of skilled crews. Then used that power to claim a parsec and become a major player in a system. Maybe this happened 300 years ago or something. I don't know, I'm still brainstorming.

Some of the ships I'm designing are not totally crewless. They might have a basic crew to compensate for limited bandwidth and TL limitations of software. And to control the vessel if the software couldn't make good decisions.

 

[steve98052]

I do love that 'stranded' idea. Very amusing and one I can see happening to my lot. :lol:

I'm glad the idea worked for someone. That same sort of misunderstanding ("Why didn't you warn us?" / "I did.") happens to everyone in the people world, so if you bring in a really stubborn, protective robot it's even more likely.

I could see the debate continuing with the captain trying to tell Artificial Frank that there are hazards on the backwater world even greater than the risk of a jump four days past the grace period for annual maintenance -- but although Frank acknowledges that the captain may be right, but that planetside risks are outside Frank's ability to calculate risk, so Frank still refuses to do the jump.

Then of course there has to be a good adventure on the world while the player characters are stranded there. Otherwise it would be a waste of a good plot twist to get them there.

The classic adventure Research Station Gamma might work, if you don't have an aversion to using published adventures, and the players are a fit for that type of adventure.

 

[legozhodani]

I can imagine the Hiver having a few automated ships.

 

[Reynard]

The old Classic Traveller 8: Robots describes how robots are viewed and treated inside and outside the imperium. Zhodani use robots the most but rely on low intelligence for cultural reasons. Aslans keep robots to 'female tasks' plus the male warbots which are dumbots. Vargr prefer robots in jobs that don't need a lot of personal interaction though they do make use of pilots and drivers. The pack mentality doesn't work well with machines. K'kree use them for the most menial task and decision making is only for K'kree leaders. The Hivers have the most diverse use and often sophisticated designs for both personal use and export and have higher intelligence than most other races give their machines. This is especially so for expert systems which could also mean automated devises and vehicles. Solomani use of robots is mixed from outright bans to some worlds making use of them for every task. Not as well built or designed as Imperial models. They do enjoy expert systems so they probably also employ them in automated units where allowed.

The Imperium's attitude about robots was shaped by the terrorist incident at Fornol (Core 1715) in -112 during the time of the Sylean Federation and brought about the Shudusham Concords being the model of manufacture and use of robotics for the Federation and the Imperium ever since with worlds designing robotic laws from the articles of the Concords. Like the Solomani love/hate relation with robotics, this could explain why some areas of Imperial space embrace automated ships while their neighbors will have nothing to do with them including banning them from their space. Woe to the adventurers who get boarded for inspection and their ship is given an intelligence test!

 

[EldritchFire]

Thinking on the idea of crewless ships, and a few things came to mind.

• Crewless ships don't need artificial gravity. Thus, you can go with the cheaper non-gravity hull cost of Cr25,000 per ton
• Crewless ships don't need life support

Both of these things means you can cut back on the power requirements for basic ship's systems. Per CRB page 144, you can reduce the required power in half by cutting power to 'non-essential' systems. And HG page 16 says that life support, automatic doors, grav plating, shipboard communications, etc stop working if you can't provide at least half the normal power.

Taking all that into consideration, would it seem reasonable to assume the absolute minimum power required for a ship to operate is 30–50% of the recommended 20% x tonnage?

For example, a 200dT ship usually requires (0.2 x 200) 40 power for basic systems. But a fully-automated 200dT ship would only require 12–20 power (30% and 50%, respectively).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Taking all that into consideration, would it seem reasonable to assume the absolute minimum power required for a ship to operate is 30–50% of the recommended 20% x tonnage?

The essential 50% includes basic life support, so if we dispense with that the power consumption should be lower, so perhaps 25 - 30%?

Not all cargo will survive unheated vacuum.

 

[Reynard]

I designed and posted an interdiction satellite that is fully automated. Life support halved (Maintenance crews need suits to fully function but at least the lights work) and there's no gravity. Power for weapons and other necessary sundries. Even the weapons are taken offline while the satellite performs station keeping maneuvers. A mobile craft seems plausible under these conditions but might cost more for items such as cargo to protect them from cold conditions while crews boarding such craft may also need protective suits to operate.

 

[EldritchFire]

Taking all that into consideration, would it seem reasonable to assume the absolute minimum power required for a ship to operate is 30–50% of the recommended 20% x tonnage?

The essential 50% includes basic life support, so if we dispense with that the power consumption should be lower, so perhaps 25 - 30%?

Not all cargo will survive unheated vacuum.

25% for drones that have no appreciable cargo, and 30% if the cargo, at least, needs some basic life support (heat, usually)?

That sounds like a good assessment.

 

[DivineWrath]

Ships can have External Cargo Mounts. This allows a ship to carry cargo at a rate of 1000 Cr per ton. Much cheaper than 50,000 Cr per ton for normal hull space. There is no mention of it needing life support or what not (which should reduce system demands). In fact, it mentions that to access the cargo you need to go out in a space suit.

It does have an impact on M-Drives and J-Drives, so they will need to be recalculated when cargo is added. An automated ship using external cargo mounts might be only fuel tanks, M-Drive, J-Drive, and P-Plant.

 

[Condottiere]

Do we allow automated jumping?